US Election November 5th

[Sachakins]

Well after 90 pages what do we have now, not much more.
But what we do have is.
A: Labour government, up to 5 years, whether its same leader is debatable.
( To voice a phrase used early, you reap what you sow, but could as easily be, you reap what your apathy gave you)

B: D J Trump, for up to 4 years.

But certainly there is a societal tie between the two nations, that being uncontrolled and unfettered immigration.

 

[Chris Puttick]

No. the UK voted to leave the EU and the EU did all they could to slow down the inevitable break up of the union by punishing the UK. At the time of the vote we were told that if we voted out we could expect a period of economic instability. It seems to me that the people accepted that in favour of the benefits of leaving.
The fact that business and industry had to adjust to the new situation is unsurprising.

Ahh that old chestnut. Yes, some people voted to "leave the EU" without understanding what that meant. A much smaller number voted leave understanding exactly what it would mean (and made a lot of money for themselves as a result). But regardless of the vote itself, the EU had *zero* control over whether the UK left or not, nor the manner of the UK's leaving. The UK government had the right and the raw capability to just stop paying its membership fees and close its borders to citizens of EU countries overnight. But the consequences of so doing would be even worse than the version of leaving the populist nationalist government went with, so it didn't happen.

The benefits of leaving? Don't make me laugh. Or cry.

 

[RobinBHM]

To voice a phrase used early, you reap what you sow

Voting for 14 years of Tories is a perfect example.

uncontrolled and unfettered immigration

The phrase “uncontrolled immigration” is a frequently used phrase.

It doesn’t how many times it’s used it’s still untrue.


Both U.K. and USA have much higher levels of wealth inequality than most other Western economies and that leads to much lower living standards for the majority of the population.

The cause of this is right wing governments not immigrants.

Why do think right wing governments and their billionaire media want you to think the problem is a due to immigrants?

Why has billionaire Trump, wants to increase wealth inequality been pointing the finger at immigrants?

 

[Scruples]

Weaponising anti semitism is the goto propaganda by the state of Israel.

I wonder what Trump will do about Israel.

Trump supports Putin and Netanyahu, I guess Trump isn’t too well informed on geo politics

The Israeli government use that antisemitic cry whenever somebody criticises their actions; an attempt to deflect their guilt, no doubt and justify their actions. It's a ploy that is wearing very thin, as world opinion slowly, but inevitably, changes.

 

[Scruples]

Ahh that old chestnut. Yes, some people voted to "leave the EU" without understanding what that meant. A much smaller number voted leave understanding exactly what it would mean (and made a lot of money for themselves as a result). But regardless of the vote itself, the EU had *zero* control over whether the UK left or not, nor the manner of the UK's leaving. The UK government had the right and the raw capability to just stop paying its membership fees and close its borders to citizens of EU countries overnight. But the consequences of so doing would be even worse than the version of leaving the populist nationalist government went with, so it didn't happen.

The benefits of leaving? Don't make me laugh. Or cry.

The government didn't need to follow the vote. It was, after all, a close run thing. But they did, Cameron resigned because he found himself with a dilemma. Choose to stay and rile the voter, or leave. He never thought the British people would react in the way they did which showed Cameron was, how out of touch he was with the people's feelings about the EU.

It matters little what reasons the majority of the electorate used to vote to leave the EU. The people spoke. The reasons are various and depend on a lot of differing arguments, all of which we've heard over the last 8 years. It's high time you wiped your eyes and wake up to the people's decision.

 

[Scruples]

It's a great shame really that the Middle East can't just blow itself of the face of the earth and let the rest of us get on with it in peace.

While the Middle East carry on their tribal infighting, the West is a safer place.

 

[RobinBHM]

It's high time you wiped your eyes and wake up to the people's decision

It’s high time everybody accepted it was the wrong decision. In many are, polls show most people think it was a mistake.


I wonder how long it will take for Trump voters to start having buyers remorse…..

 

[Scruples]

This is, of course, true. That Israeli actions in response to the 7th October attack by Hamas has resulted in immense suffering is beyond doubt. It would be preferable that the debate focus on workable solutions.

The UN convention on Genocide. This is not Israeli policy, although I suspect some on the political extreme right in Israel may be supportive (I would not). The International Court of Justice has yet to come to a conclusion on the matter bought before it by South Africa and others.

The original Hamas charter (1988) defines the struggle to be against the Jews and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic Palestinian state in all of former mandatory Palestine and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel. This unambiguously evidences genocidal intent.

Yet one contributor seems inclined to describe Hamas as "resistance fighters" as if their actions are a somehow worthy response to those who challenge their genocidal ambitions.

I suppose that the illegal and, sometimes, violent actions of the Israeli settlers, supported by the government, didn't have any bearing on Hamas's decisions? So, we are 'persuaded' by the US and other Jewish-financed countries to take the Jewish side.

The world, however, is witnessing the actions of the Israelis and the tide of opinion is turning.
And yes, I suppose Hamas could be viewed by some as a resistance force. Or else, what are they fighting for? If they think that Israel wants to wipe out the Palestinians, and take over the land they occupy, then isn't it logical that, in some way or other, the Palestinians will want the same fate for the Jews? Of course, the power of the West has decided that Israel is somehow the victim and Hamas the terrorist. Hmm...

 

[Scruples]

It’s high time everybody accepted it was the wrong decision. In many are, polls show most people think it was a mistake.


I wonder how long it will take for Trump voters to start having buyers remorse…..

 

[selectortone]

It’s high time everybody accepted it was the wrong decision. In many are, polls show most people think it was a mistake.

My partner's facebook feed seems to be continuously full of people trying to justify why they voted for Brexit. Methinks they doth protest too much.

 

[Chris152]

I don't get the antipathy displayed towards Elon Musk. As a human being he is egotistical and arrogant - both qualities I am less than fond of, but he has been hugely successful in that which he has achieved - both financially and in transforming technology.

He can take a large part of the credit for:

• X.com which subsequently morphed into Paypal
• Tesla - 1.8m vehicles from nothing in 8 years
• SpaceX - doing at a fraction of the cost that which NASA would have done
• Starlink
• Neuralink
• Twitter - prbably an aberration IMHO

Is he unacceptable by association simply because he is a Trump supporter. Is he unacceptable because he has made more money than he could spend in several thousand lifetimes of excess. If he came up with a cure for cancer would that make him OK or still a pariah.

IMHO his involvement should be welcomed - he has clearly demonstrated a capacity to anticipate the future and be at the head of the transformative charge. There are many others Trump could have placed reliance upon who would probably justify the hostility.

This is an interesting account of Musk's achievements and failures:


(Start at about 38 mins if you just want the conclusion.)

It doesn't get as far as his involvement in the recent election, but I think we're all pretty aware of his antics on that front. An example:
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/wr...-billion-views-x-2024-report-says-2024-11-04/
('Musk and X are epicenter of US election misinformation, experts say')

To my mind, it all goes very wrong with his acquisition of Twitter and the bogus and dishonest claim to promotion of free speech.

 

[Scruples]

My partner's facebook feed seems to be continuously full of people trying to justify why they voted for Brexit. Methinks they doth protest too much.

I think it's more a reaction to those who can't accept the truth. Of course, the pandemic followed on the heels of Brexit so it reduce the financial gains from leaving; the NHS got most of the money, but not in the way it was planned. And the businesses and workers were kept solvent for a few years too.

 

[ey_tony]

A question for the Europhiles seeing as how Brexit keeps popping up in the Trump thread.

Inevitably the agenda of the EU mandarins is to create an all encompassing federal Europe, anyone who can't see that is either blind or stupid.
That is the ultimate agenda of the EU so the question is what happens when the UK comes to the crossroads of either total submission and allowing some obscure Orwellian government in say Brussels et al having virtually total control over most aspects of our lives with the UK just a marginalised outlier in this huge 'one-nation' federal Europe or do we as a sovereign nation choose freedom to make our own decisions?

I know what my answer would be!

That situation won't arise in my lifetime even if we were still EU members but had the UK stayed a member of the EU then that would be be the dilemma facing our grandchildren or possibly even our children in the future.
We saw how difficult it was to extricate the UK from the EU after the Brexit vote, just think how inordinately more difficult it would be decades down the line.

The primary driver for the Brexit voting result was undoubtedly migration and that issue has still not gone away and I fear if not addressed will ultimately lead to a rise of the far right which is undesirable to say the least.
I've never quite understood the open-border mindset. What kind of a screwed up mentality would actually even consider it?

Trump love him or hate him has got that one right! He doesn't want to see millions of migrants pouring in over the borders which resonates with many Americans who voted for him.
He wants to put America first...what exactly is wrong with that? He is accused of being populist...what is wrong with having policies which appeal to the public and don't give me that condescending dung about the people who vote for him!

I loathe the term populist as it implies that people who vote for those policies are somehow inferior, much like the mindset of the pro-EU voters who looked down upon and marginalised anyone who didn't agree with the EU's migration policies....the real thickos are those who couldn't see how uncontrolled migration was affecting the poorest in our society and is still doing so today.

Of course the EU would make an example out of the people of the UK to punish them for voting to leave the EU, that was inevitable and the UK's Brexit negotiators failed miserably to achieve a decent trading agreements but now is the time to address those failures.

Recently I was shot down by the pro-EU zealots for pointing out that the UK could actually force the hand of the EU and sue for better trading deals due the unstable nature of the German economy and especially their flagship car industry and low and behold what has been happening? It's in deep whotsit!

The EU is slowly coming apart at the seams and irrespective of what the EU trolls keep regurgitating, the UK is ultimately better off long term out of the EU than as a member. Why would you tie your colours to the mast of a sinking ship?

 

[selectortone]

anyone who can't see that is either blind or stupid.

If I'm blind or stupid why are you bothered what I think?

 

[ey_tony]

If I'm blind or stupid why are you bothered what I think?

I'm not!

 

[Jacob]

Inevitably the agenda of the EU mandarins is to create an all encompassing federal Europe, anyone who can't see that is either blind or stupid.

The blind or stupid might not have noticed that we now have much less influence on any European initiatives in whatever direction they choose to go, including how this might relate to the UK itself.
Also we now have much less influence globally, as an independent small state outside of a powerful European alliance, in a troubled world.
Also we have weakened he EU itself, our nearest neighbours, natural allies and important global power bloc.
How blind or stupid can you get?

...I've never quite understood the open-border mindset. What kind of a screwed up mentality would actually even consider it?

Open borders within the EU was probably the most inspired feature of the whole project. Not just three of the "four freedoms" of movement (goods, capital, services) but of people too. Democracy on the hoof! We now have a barrier limiting our personal freedom. Much less power to the people.

Trump love him or hate him has got that one right! He doesn't want to see millions of migrants pouring in over the borders which resonates with many Americans who voted for him.
....

He wants to deprive the "many Americans who voted for him" of a massive cheap workforce, both legally working and on the black economy even cheaper.
Whatever the other rights and wrongs it would be a disaster on that score alone.

the real thickos are those who couldn't see how uncontrolled migration was affecting the poorest in our society and is still doing so today.

The real thickos are those who can't see that migration was much better controlled in cooperation with the EU, instead brexit put much greater pressure on the UK.
It's a global problem anyway and better dealt with by cooperation.

 

[Sachakins]

Voting for 14 years of Tories is a perfect example.

How is that relevant?

The phrase “uncontrolled immigration” is a frequently used phrase.

It doesn’t how many times it’s used it’s still untrue.

Wrong again, it is true and it was just a statement of fact.

Both U.K. and USA have much higher levels of wealth inequality than most other Western economies and that leads to much lower living standards for the majority of the population.

The cause of this is right wing governments not immigrants.

Why do think right wing governments and their billionaire media want you to think the problem is a due to immigrants?

Why has billionaire Trump, wants to increase wealth inequality been pointing the finger at immigrants?

Don't know why you mention any of this twaddle, it has nothing in relation to what I said.

To reiterate in simpler words you may understand.
The election resulted in Labour with majority of seats. Fact
The USA election results, Trump with majority of Electoral College Votes.Fact
Both countries have net migration figures higher than they want. Fact

 

[Chris152]

I loathe the term populist as it implies that people who vote for those policies are somehow inferior, much like the mindset of the pro-EU voters who looked down upon and marginalised anyone who didn't agree with the EU's migration policies....the real thickos are those who couldn't see how uncontrolled migration was affecting the poorest in our society and is still doing so today.

This is populism:

And this is a reasonable, short summary of how it works:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43301423

 

[ey_tony]

The blind or stupid might not have noticed that we now have much less influence on any European initiatives in whatever direction they choose to go, including how this might relate to the UK itself.

Open borders within the EU was probably the most inspired feature of the whole project. Not just three of the "four freedoms" of movement (goods, capital, services) but of people too. Democracy on the hoof! We now have a barrier limiting our personal freedom.

He wants to deprive the "many Americans who voted for him" of a massive cheap workforce, both legally working and on the black economy even cheaper.
Whatever the other rights and wrongs it would be a disaster on that score alone.

We've left the EU so we shouldn't expect to have influence! We didn't have enough influence for the EU to moderate its migration policies when we were members which arguably would have prevented the Brexit vote so all this influence nonsense is just what it is...nonsense.

Cheap migrant labour comes at a price. I'll wager you and the rest of the Europhiles on here by and large weren't affected by the many undesirable effects of uncontrolled EU migration just as those today condoning the illegal migrants arriving in boats as we speak aren't affected. Its the poorest in our nation that are on the front line when it comes to migration, illegal or otherwise.
They are far more likely to have to compete with migrants for jobs, decent housing and access to government & social infrastructure which happens to be under stress in the poorer parts of the UK.
I'm quite sure those who live in the leafy suburbs of the Home Counties will have been least affected by migration than those who live in the poorer inner city areas where the competition is most fierce for the things I've just mentioned.

Labour like any other commodity has a value and excess availability of cheap labour means low wages inevitably for the poorest which we saw during our membership of the EU.
Cheap goods for some means low wages for others! I'd rather pay more knowing that in doing so my money is giving someone else who is poorer a better living standard than just me enjoying the benefits of cheap labour knowing that someone else is losing out!

I always thought you were a socialist but it seems you are just a closet capitalist willing to take advantage at other's expense!

 

[sploo]

Wrong again, it is true and it was just a statement of fact.

How is "uncontrolled immigration" a statement of fact, when we do have controls on immigration? It might not be at a level you'd like, but "uncontrolled" means no controls, no barriers; a complete open door. It would mean there was no refusal of immigration, and no repatriation - both of which do happen.

I think it's more a reaction to those who can't accept the truth. Of course, the pandemic followed on the heels of Brexit so it reduce the financial gains from leaving; the NHS got most of the money, but not in the way it was planned. And the businesses and workers were kept solvent for a few years too.

I think you meant "the damage the pandemic caused to the economy masked the financial losses from leaving".