US Election November 5th

[RobinBHM]

So anti sementism is not treating jews nicely, so what is the one for christians, moslems, hindu's and budda's ?

Criticising the state of Israel and hating Jews ate not the same thing.

The state of Israel uses the weaponisation of antisemitism as a propaganda tool

 

[RobinBHM]

No matter what I type here - remember one thing as you read it through - that it will all be written politely. Dispassionately and factually. But above all, politely. And in my view - that's more than can be said for your postings.

The issue is this, Tony - if people have put you on ignore it isn't because they disagree with you - far from it, people are generally not like that - so there must be more going on - if indeed people have put you on ignore as you suspect. Like you, I have never ever in my many years of discussing topics with people of all views on forums put anyone on ignore. I confess to having considered that on only a single individual! But I haven't. I choose not to. Partly because like I mentioned somewhere before - you may or may not have read or remember - I choose to keep myself informed from all sources - no matter how awful, disgusting, untruthful and deliberately misleading they are. I choose not to dwell in an echo chamber.

So, what is the issue you may be asking yourself? Quite simply it is that you are openly aggressive and insulting, on several levels, and refuse to take on board the true facts when they are presented to you in an evidenced fashion, instead apparently preferring to continue to propagate known lies. ( <- Written politely, as promised - I have not insulted you, this is an evidenced observation.)

Look at your post above. Calling people "obnoxious" and calling their character into question if they have chosen to dissociate with you (and you must know if they have you on ignore, that they can't read or respond to what you are saying about them - so why even do that?). Not cool, bro. You are also openly hostile, demeaning and insulting about "the left" (as some kind of homogenous entity - as if that is even a thing - it is reminiscent of Liz Truss's attitude when you say those things - and you have seen how she comes across when she says those things). You are also hostile, demeaning and insulting about particular people that you clearly have some kind of (anger?) issue with, calling them "stupid", etc,,, (when quite clearly the individuals quoted are far from being "stupid" in any objective sense).

On the matter of spreading lies -> In a recent post you claimed (again) that there was no such thing as the £22bn black hole - because "everyone knew it existed". I've tackled this point with you myself, probably on more than one occasion. Whether you are doing so intentionally or not, what you wrote is tantamount to a lie. Amongst the other evidence, which I'm sure I've provided before, which if you've read, you've chosen to disregard - the head of the OBR is on Public Record - this time quoted from the recent Treasury Select Committee, (as well as writing an official letter about the situation which I'm sure I've previously linked to) - spending commitments (projected overspend of allowable budget) within the previous government - and I quote "were not disclosed to us [the OBR], as part of our usual Budget preparations [March Budget], which under the Law and under the Act, they [Tories] should have done".

The truth is really simple - it has been confirmed by the Head of the OBR that unbudgeted, unfunded spending commitments were deliberately hidden from the OBR (and therefore hidden form the public, and from the opposition) by the previous government. The previous government acted outside of the Law. Ergo, the black hole is proven to exist and it is proven that it was not foreseeable by a new govt, because the truth was unlawfully hidden from scrutiny.

So if anyone has indeed put you on ignore it is probably because you can be unpleasant to engage in discussion with and/or refuse to look facts in the face when provided, which probably makes it difficult for people to want to interact with you - particularly when you don't acknowledge reality and instead continue to subscribe to, and actively push, some mistruth or other.

That's all I have, matey - take it or leave it. Up to you. I trust that I didn't come across as obnoxious to you.

Yeah but all lefties are idiots and everything about the left is wrong.

Tony said so, so it must be correct and no you can't have any facts or evidence, feelings are all that counts

 

[RobinBHM]

How long will it be before Trumps plans fall apart and people start noticing?

For hardcore MAGAs that will be never, but for for normal people not hooked on the Koolaid, I reckon the cracks will start appearing by next summer

How long do you give It?

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

How long will it be before Trumps plans fall apart and people start noticing?

For hardcore MAGAs that will be never, but for for normal people not hooked on the Koolaid, I reckon the cracks will start appearing by next summer

How long do you give It?

Judging by what I've already seen - it has started already. (The hard core Trumpsters have already been out on Musk's cesspit, posting what can only be described as "gleeful admissions" that Project 2025 was the plan all along and they had played it down deliberately to obfuscate.)

Examples:

One Trump voting naturalised citizen now afraid, after the realisation finally hit home to him when he got texts from work colleagues saying "Pack your bags", that his parents will now be deported... [I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One Trump "influencer" now disowned from her family, unwelcome and nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc, because the Trump policies will bring material harm to them and to others. [I personally don't feel very sorry for this woman, because as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One latino Trump voter now really upset that all of the other white Trump voters on his street will no longer allow their children to play with his children - even though they know he voted Trump and he's happy that Trump won. [Again, I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]


People are now beginning to witness/face the realisations of the very real repercussions of their actions, and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

 

[AJB Temple]

Judging by what I've already seen - it has started already. (The hard core Trumpsters have already been out on Musk's cesspit, posting what can only be described as "gleeful admissions" that Project 2025 was the plan all along and they had played it down deliberately to obfuscate.)

Examples:

One Trump voting naturalised citizen now afraid, after the realisation finally hit home to him when he got texts from work colleagues saying "Pack your bags", that his parents will now be deported... [I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One Trump "influencer" now disowned from her family, unwelcome and nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc, because the Trump policies will bring material harm to them and to others. [I personally don't feel very sorry for this woman, because as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One latino Trump voter now really upset that all of the other white Trump voters on his street will no longer allow their children to play with his children - even though they know he voted Trump and he's happy that Trump won. [Again, I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]


People are now beginning to witness/face the realisations of the very real repercussions of their actions, and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

Bit like Brexit fallout then.

Something around 145 million people voted in the US election so you are bound to get a few nutters. The twittersphere has been toxic for years. Musk may have made it worse but it was a mess before then. It's best just treated as suitable for people with nothing to do, rather like TikTok.

 

[sploo]

Judging by what I've already seen - it has started already. (The hard core Trumpsters have already been out on Musk's cesspit, posting what can only be described as "gleeful admissions" that Project 2025 was the plan all along and they had played it down deliberately to obfuscate.)

Examples:

One Trump voting naturalised citizen now afraid, after the realisation finally hit home to him when he got texts from work colleagues saying "Pack your bags", that his parents will now be deported... [I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One Trump "influencer" now disowned from her family, unwelcome and nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc, because the Trump policies will bring material harm to them and to others. [I personally don't feel very sorry for this woman, because as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One latino Trump voter now really upset that all of the other white Trump voters on his street will no longer allow their children to play with his children - even though they know he voted Trump and he's happy that Trump won. [Again, I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]


People are now beginning to witness/face the realisations of the very real repercussions of their actions, and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

Sounds like the classic "I voted for the Leopards Eating Your Face party, but I never thought they'd eat my face!"

 

[selectortone]

Judging by what I've already seen - it has started already. (The hard core Trumpsters have already been out on Musk's cesspit, posting what can only be described as "gleeful admissions" that Project 2025 was the plan all along and they had played it down deliberately to obfuscate.)

Examples:

One Trump voting naturalised citizen now afraid, after the realisation finally hit home to him when he got texts from work colleagues saying "Pack your bags", that his parents will now be deported... [I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One Trump "influencer" now disowned from her family, unwelcome and nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc, because the Trump policies will bring material harm to them and to others. [I personally don't feel very sorry for this woman, because as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One latino Trump voter now really upset that all of the other white Trump voters on his street will no longer allow their children to play with his children - even though they know he voted Trump and he's happy that Trump won. [Again, I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]


People are now beginning to witness/face the realisations of the very real repercussions of their actions, and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

All that is very sad and just shows how stupid this left/right thing has become. My partner and I are complete opposites when it comes to politics but that doesn't stop us having a deep and loving relationship. The world has gone mad.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I don't get the antipathy displayed towards Elon Musk. As a human being he is egotistical and arrogant - both qualities I am less than fond of, but he has been hugely successful in that which he has achieved - both financially and in transforming technology.

He can take a large part of the credit for:

• X.com which subsequently morphed into Paypal
• Tesla - 1.8m vehicles from nothing in 8 years
• SpaceX - doing at a fraction of the cost that which NASA would have done
• Starlink
• Neuralink
• Twitter - prbably an aberration IMHO

Is he unacceptable by association simply because he is a Trump supporter. Is he unacceptable because he has made more money than he could spend in several thousand lifetimes of excess. If he came up with a cure for cancer would that make him OK or still a pariah.

IMHO his involvement should be welcomed - he has clearly demonstrated a capacity to anticipate the future and be at the head of the transformative charge. There are many others Trump could have placed reliance upon who would probably justify the hostility.

 

[Jacob]

Judging by what I've already seen - it has started already. (The hard core Trumpsters have already been out on Musk's cesspit, posting what can only be described as "gleeful admissions" that Project 2025 was the plan all along and they had played it down deliberately to obfuscate.)

Examples:

One Trump voting naturalised citizen now afraid, after the realisation finally hit home to him when he got texts from work colleagues saying "Pack your bags", that his parents will now be deported... [I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One Trump "influencer" now disowned from her family, unwelcome and nowhere to go on Thanksgiving and Christmas, etc, because the Trump policies will bring material harm to them and to others. [I personally don't feel very sorry for this woman, because as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]

One latino Trump voter now really upset that all of the other white Trump voters on his street will no longer allow their children to play with his children - even though they know he voted Trump and he's happy that Trump won. [Again, I personally do feel very sorry for this guy, but as the saying goes, Reap what ye sow.]


People are now beginning to witness/face the realisations of the very real repercussions of their actions, and I don't think it is going to be pretty.

Had to look up Project 2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
Very weird.
Presumably they can attempt to change the constitution - but then the opposition can oppose in so many ways, not necessarily constitutional.
Interesting times!

 

[Jacob]

I don't get the antipathy displayed towards Elon Musk. As a human being he is egotistical and arrogant - both qualities I am less than fond of, but he has been hugely successful in that which he has achieved - both financially and in transforming technology.

He can take a large part of the credit for:

• X.com which subsequently morphed into Paypal
• Tesla - 1.8m vehicles from nothing in 8 years
• SpaceX - doing at a fraction of the cost that which NASA would have done
• Starlink
• Neuralink
• Twitter - prbably an aberration IMHO

He has been successful in generating money from stuff nobody needs - a very American thing to do. We would manage perfectly well without any of these things.
Just happen to have been browsing "A People's History of the United States" Howard Zinn (chapter 12) and it seems that over production has been a major USA concern from late 18 hundreds onwards and a major motivation behind their foreign policy, i.e. how to sell stuff which nobody needs to the rest of the world. If necessary just to drop it on them in the form of bombs - arms manufacture is very big business and dominates USA economy.

... If he came up with a cure for cancer would that make him OK or still a pariah.

Would depends on how he chose to dispense it.

IMHO his involvement should be welcomed - he has clearly demonstrated a capacity to anticipate the future and be at the head of the transformative charge.

Completely the opposite. Climate change itself is in many ways a product of the production of stuff nobody needs. He is carrying on the same mindless process and has the power and influence to resist moves to zero carbon. Musk and his likes are the problem.

There are many others Trump could have placed reliance upon who would probably justify the hostility.

No doubt we will be seeing them in due course, in all their awfulness.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I don't get the antipathy displayed towards Elon Musk. As a human being he is egotistical and arrogant - both qualities I am less than fond of, but he has been hugely successful in that which he has achieved - both financially and in transforming technology.

He can take a large part of the credit for:

• X.com which subsequently morphed into Paypal
• Tesla - 1.8m vehicles from nothing in 8 years
• SpaceX - doing at a fraction of the cost that which NASA would have done
• Starlink
• Neuralink
• Twitter - prbably an aberration IMHO

Is he unacceptable by association simply because he is a Trump supporter. Is he unacceptable because he has made more money than he could spend in several thousand lifetimes of excess. If he came up with a cure for cancer would that make him OK or still a pariah.

IMHO his involvement should be welcomed - he has clearly demonstrated a capacity to anticipate the future and be at the head of the transformative charge. There are many others Trump could have placed reliance upon who would probably justify the hostility.

There’s no doubting he’s intelligent and I’ve posted earlier saying I have a begrudging respect for what he’s achieved.

My concern is around conflicts of interest. Is he in it for the good of the US or to further his own business interests at all cost? Do you think influencing the election outcome with $1,000,000 handouts to voters is a good way to go about things? I don’t.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

All that is very sad and just shows how stupid this left/right thing has become. My partner and I are complete opposites when it comes to politics but that doesn't stop us having a deep and loving relationship. The world has gone mad.

I get you on the deep loving relationship, etc,...
However, I think for the present US situation, it is getting past that point for some, solely on the account of the radical nature of one side.

What I mean by that is the following... When your loved one tells you that if you vote for "Z", and "Z" wins, the policies they will put in place will have a direct negative effect on both me - AND YOU. If YOU then dismiss what ought to be the self-evidence of that direct harm - out of sheer tribalism - and then later realise that the harm is real and was described to you all along, there is no wonder that this brings relationships past breaking point.

It is the direct harm that is the deal-breaker and the obvious fact that it was foreseeable and clearly described beforehand - and yet you went and voted that way anyway. It isn't the fact that you disagree about the difference between two non-harm options. Disagreeing is fine. Ignoring the obvious outcome and putting your tribalism ahead of my safety/security/etc is something completely different.

This is where we are at.

Oh, doesn't this remind you of Brexit?? The harm is real. Since 2016 it has cost UK around £1trillion. This was clearly described beforehand. Yet tribalism (& racism) won the day and people accepted the lies because they wanted to. For whatever reason.

 

[Jacob]

There’s no doubting he’s intelligent and I’ve posted earlier saying I have a begrudging respect for what he’s achieved.

Not me - he's just another extremely rich **** spending his money like a maniac.

My concern is around conflicts of interest. Is he in it for the good of the US or to further his own business interests at all cost? Do you think influencing the election outcome with $1,000,000 handouts to voters is a good way to go about things? I don’t.

Read all about him, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_of_Elon_Musk
He's spent billions on organisations which do not have the interests of the 99% at heart.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

I don't get the antipathy displayed towards Elon Musk. As a human being he is egotistical and arrogant - both qualities I am less than fond of, but he has been hugely successful in that which he has achieved - both financially and in transforming technology.

He can take a large part of the credit for:

• X.com which subsequently morphed into Paypal
• Tesla - 1.8m vehicles from nothing in 8 years
• SpaceX - doing at a fraction of the cost that which NASA would have done
• Starlink
• Neuralink
• Twitter - prbably an aberration IMHO

Is he unacceptable by association simply because he is a Trump supporter. Is he unacceptable because he has made more money than he could spend in several thousand lifetimes of excess. If he came up with a cure for cancer would that make him OK or still a pariah.

IMHO his involvement should be welcomed - he has clearly demonstrated a capacity to anticipate the future and be at the head of the transformative charge. There are many others Trump could have placed reliance upon who would probably justify the hostility.

Has he shown any interest in doing anything other than selfish accrual of wealth? I acknowledge that he has been very successful at that and it will no doubt continue. That is a side note and not an issue.

You make it seem as though you think people are hating on the man solely out of his success or his wealth. That's a straw man. Nobody cares.

What people are concerned about is the underhandedness by which he goes about the things that he does.

twitter is not an aberration in my view - it was a deliberate loss leader - he knew the spend would buy him power and influence. Influence over the voter base and influence over Trump. Trump is transactional.
"If you promise to do "a, b, c", I will make sure you win the election so that you can get me "a, b, c."


Coming up with a cure for cancer is more than we would expect or hope. Just showing an interest in trying to help find a cure would be enough...

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I get you on the deep loving relationship, etc,...
However, I think for the present US situation, it is getting past that point for some, solely on the account of the radical nature of one side.

What I mean by that is the following... When your loved one tells you that if you vote for "Z", and "Z" wins, the policies they will put in place will have a direct negative effect on both me - AND YOU. If YOU then dismiss what ought to be the self-evidence of that direct harm - out of sheer tribalism - and then later realise that the harm is real and was described to you all along, there is no wonder that this brings relationships past breaking point.

It is the direct harm that is the deal-breaker and the obvious fact that it was foreseeable and clearly described beforehand - and yet you went and voted that way anyway. It isn't the fact that you disagree about the difference between two non-harm options. Disagreeing is fine. Ignoring the obvious outcome and putting your tribalism ahead of my safety/security/etc is something completely different.

This is where we are at.

Oh, doesn't this remind you of Brexit?? The harm is real. Since 2016 it has cost UK around £1trillion. This was clearly described beforehand. Yet tribalism (& racism) won the day and people accepted the lies because they wanted to. For whatever reason.

It is completely acceptable for two folk with precisely the same data to form different conclusions - it has little to do with tribalism although that may influence the outcome.

Brexit happened because 52% of voters came to the conclusion, having considered all the arguments put forward, that it was worth voting for. With hindsight they were wrong - or we are still waiting for the benefits to appear!

That you and I may have formed a different view from the outset means only that we came to a different conclusion - I doubt we belong to the same political tribe.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

It is completely acceptable for two folk with precisely the same data to form different conclusions - it has little to do with tribalism although that may influence the outcome.

Brexit happened because 52% of voters came to the conclusion, having considered all the arguments put forward, that it was worth voting for. With hindsight they were wrong - or we are still waiting for the benefits to appear!

That you and I may have formed a different view from the outset means only that we came to a different conclusion - I doubt we belong to the same political tribe.

I think you missed the point. I said it wasn't about the disagreement.
I said it was about one person saying, straight up, that if you vote for "this", then "this" will have a significant negative impact on both me and you.

That's not about "forming an opinion". It's about the obvious foreseeable consequences. In other words, "if you do this and it harms me, I'm not sure I can stay in a relationship when, as far as I can tell, you chose to bring that harm upon me after I warned you about it."

 

[Croolis]

So if anyone has indeed put you on ignore it is probably because you can be unpleasant to engage in discussion with and/or refuse to look facts in the face when provided, which probably makes it difficult for people to want to interact with you - particularly when you don't acknowledge reality and instead continue to subscribe to, and actively push, some mistruth or other.

That's all I have, matey - take it or leave it. Up to you. I trust that I didn't come across as obnoxious to you.

Was me who put him on ignore because... wtf. I think he's just on a windup to see if you'll write more words than he does or something. Meh, I got bored with it at least half a dozen pages ago. I can't insult him properly (which I'm sure is what Tony wants) because Noel will come get me (which I'm sure is what Tony wants).


Meanwhile, back at the thread - whenever I see a lineup of all the folks getting/tipped to get Trump's cabinet positions they all seem to have the aspect of sinister villains. Is anyone else getting that ? wooOOOoohh.

 

[RobinBHM]

Brexit happened because 52% of voters came to the conclusion, having considered all the arguments put forward, that it was worth voting for

The Trump win means we can all polish up our knowledge on tariffs, TRQs, World Trade Organisation Rules, Most Favoured Nation rules.

Here’s my tuppence for starters: tariffs have limited use, they are only really good for protecting specific domestic markets. For example the U.K. basically copied across the EU tariffs on farm produce like beef, lamb, pork etc. because U.K. farming is small scale, land is expensive and often not flat….so we have high tariffs to,protect against cheaper imports.

Generally lowering tariffs is best for economic growth overall, raising them generally damages domestic markets more than it helps

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I think you missed the point. I said it wasn't about the disagreement.
I said it was about one person saying, straight up, that if you vote for "this", then "this" will have a significant negative impact on both me and you.

That's not about "forming an opinion". It's about the obvious foreseeable consequences. In other words, "if you do this and it harms me, I'm not sure I can stay in a relationship when, as far as I can tell, you chose to bring that harm upon me after I warned you about it."

52% of folk apparently thought Brexit a good idea and voted accordingly. They clearly felt that the obvious foreseeable consequences of staying in the EU would cause more harm than leaving. That with hindsight they were proven wrong does not change their opinion at the point they voted.

Disagreement within a relationship means one will be unhappy with the outcome. Both may assert the vote of the other will be personally damaging. It may lead to relationship breakdown. Folk can decide for themselves how to respond.

Personally - I thought Brexit completely ill-conceived. I lost the argument. Re-joining is realistically a decade or two away, if ever. There is no benefit in making matters worse through conflict and emotion over that which cannot be changed. Solution is to try and make it work as best it can.

 

[ey_tony]

Was me who put him on ignore because... wtf. I think he's just on a windup to see if you'll write more words than he does or something. Meh, I got bored with it at least half a dozen pages ago. I can't insult him properly (which I'm sure is what Tony wants) because Noel will come get me (which I'm sure is what Tony wants).


Meanwhile, back at the thread - whenever I see a lineup of all the folks getting/tipped to get Trump's cabinet positions they all seem to have the aspect of sinister villains. Is anyone else getting that ? wooOOOoohh.

I'm sure you'll read this at some point even if I am on ignore. Please don't let insulting me worry you, I'm not remotely interested in seeing you banned so I assure you that you won't upset me unless you accuse me of being a Tory!
Why on earth would you think that I want you banned? You're just some anonymous keyboard warrior sat in front of a screen telling everyone how you view the world from your perspective, which just happens to conflict with my views but it shouldn't lead to getting so angry that one gets banned.

On the contrary the last thing I want is to see is the likes of you being banned as I find it educational to observe the mindset of left wing extremists especially after reading such as the second sentence in your post above which arguably confirms how irrationally they think.

From my perspective when someone sees the potential appointees of positions in a foreign government (Trumps) as sinister villains, it somehow sheds light on how their brain works so please keep those thoughts coming.