Blackswanwood
Still Learning
NATO is a defensive alliance. Its expansion was no threat to Russia. The agreements Russia negotiated when the Eastern bloc crumbled do not preclude any country from joining NATO.
US Election November 5th
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Ed Weber
Established Member
It's Don the Con
I have to say, I don't know what to expect but to those who think we're making something out of nothing, talk to me in a few years and we'll compare notes.
Everything has become so normalized over the last 10 years, people don't even notice it's happened.
Between the horrible policies and the ridiculous culture wars, it will be exhausting.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I don't think there was a perhaps.
Hypnotic Chimera
Directional Consultant Extraordinaire
There wasn't really a perhaps.
I didn't understand when the West just stood by and watched Crimea fall.
Then I didn't understand when the West did nothing when Donbas was obviously going to be invaded. The West was *watching* it happen before it happened - military build ups are not something that can be hidden.
RobinBHM
Established Member
Budapest memorandum:
Ukraine agreed to lose its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees to “respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine”.
Its not more fuel into the fire
if Trump negotiates a deal with Putin all it will do is give him time to build a new war chest and military so he can restart
Putin is a brutal dictator who only responds to strength
This is false, Eastern European countries democratically chose to join NATO, it was their sovereign right to do so
It is not for Putin to have influence over the decisions of sovereign countries
Your argument is based on framing Putin as the victim, but he isnt, he is a brutal Imperialist dictator
Tell me Spectric, if you lived a country adjacent to Russia, would you want to be part of NATO, to ensure your security, given Putin has invaded 5 countries
AJB Temple
Finely figured
Really I think that is a bit simplistic. Spectric, your fellow mod, does have a point, however, I think this issue really goes back much further. Putin and his acolytes seem to resent the break up of the USSR that dates back to the Gorbachov / Reagan era leading up to 1991 and the Yeltsin / Bush period. Those in Russia who believe the dissolution and independence was a huge mistake, want to turn the clock back, and they have been taking steps to do exactly that.
I'm not sure that it's up to the US or the UK to tell Russia that it can't try to reverse the dissolution. We tend to see things through a western lens and consider that we know best, but many Russians would disagree and think we simply disrespect their perspective.
The argument that the EU and NATO have made matters worse by getting ever nearer to Russian / former USSR borders is a major factor for the Putin side, but tends to be dismissed by the western side. This dismissal of how the Russians feel may be seen by them as provocative.
I'm claiming zero expertise here, but I do think that polarised positions invariably skim over the underlying cultural and political complexities. We have no real right to impose our western position on anyone else. Borders have changed repeatedly through the centuries and are not cast in stone - they are just ink on a map.
Many would argue that Ukraine and Russia have far more in common than Ukraine and the UK say. I'm not expressing a view either way in respect of Ukraine, other than that the west may be trying to push water uphill here. Trump may well take a pragmatic view on fixing it and maybe we should wait and see what he actually does rather than speculating on what he might do. Ultimately we don't want a war with Russia. Our next world war will be nuclear and will be the last one the world and humanity sees. Our main focus has to be prevention - which is a big picture viewpoint.
Perhaps we should be rebuilding the British Empire…
Utter drivel. Maybe you ought to change your name to Neville.
I'm not sure the Russian people have any such ambitions. Of course we don't know what they want, they have no real voice. Putin couldn't give a **** what they think.
If he dropped dead tomorrow I suspect Russia's expansionist ambitions would die with him.
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
I'm not sure it is simplistic to point out that it was Putin that made the choice to start this conflict. His wish that the Warsaw Pact break up had been handled differently is largely irrelevant. Russia is a party to the agreements they negotiated. You don't need rely on the media to see this - the papers from the time are declassified in the US National Archive and Clinton Library.
So do you think we should just ignore when a country decides to ignore international law?
The countries that have joined NATO (and the EU) have done so of their free will. We're not imposing ourselves on them - they don't want to live under the threat of Putin's heel. NATO is a defensive alliance. The only time they have deployed operationally outside of NATO member territory has been under the mandate of the UN i.e. KFOR peacekeeping.
That's pretty much what Neville Chamberlain said about Hitler. That didn't turn out too well did it?
I don't buy the argument that we let Putin have whatever he wants as that means he'll then stop. Where would you draw the line on him re-establishing the old world order? Moldovia? Poland? East Germany?
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
An interesting, if rather depressing, explanation of why Trump will probably get away with all his various recent crimes.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
So... "Someone I don't like moved in next door to you, so I had to attack you. Don't complain; it's your fault."
ey_tony
Established Member
The issue is that the West/CIA back in 2014 was complicit in bringing down the official pro-Russian Ukrainian government which was leaning toward more to better ties with Russia, replacing it with a pro-Western/EU government and although I'm no fan of Putin I can see why he's hostile to the West.
I try never to accept Western propaganda as trustworthy especially where the American government is concerned, just as I don't where such as Russia is concerned...both sides will use propaganda to their own advantage so I treat all propaganda from either side with caution.
Hopefully if the assassins don't get him first I can see Trump negotiating/brokering a peaceful solution to the conflict as I'm sure both sides would welcome a negotiated way out to save face and ultimately countless lives.
Putin is in a mess. His ambition to invade Ukraine has been a disaster. Whether he was deluded enough to believe that the Ukrainians would jump at the chance to be reunited, or that his forces would simply sweep them aside we may never really know.
Quite likely that he will have been badly misled by his own military and intelligence people. This is what happens if, like most dictators, you surround yourself with sycophants. Invade Ukraine, great idea Mr Putin, be over in a week Mr Putin.
All he has achieved is to demonstrate to the world that Russia's much vaunted conventional forces are a bit of a **** show.
To cause the expansion of NATO, the very thing he has always had a bee in his bonnet about.
And, for the first time since the second world war, to have enemy troops occupying Russian soil.
Stalin must be spinning like a top.
The problem is that he has no obvious way out of the mess he has got himself into.
Actually winning is I think a distant dream for him.
I suspect if he could find an exit strategy that would not involve too great a loss of face he would probably grab it with both hands.
How to do that, whilst preserving the integrity of Ukraine is very hard to see.
The worry for me is that Trump loves to be the centre of attention. He may well seek to broker a deal, in order to proclaim himself the man who made peace. He will no doubt claim it is a great deal, maybe the greatest deal ever made. I doubt the Ukrainians will agree, since it is likely to involve them giving up territory, and quite possibly giving up any ambition to join NATO and or the EU.
Quite likely that he will have been badly misled by his own military and intelligence people. This is what happens if, like most dictators, you surround yourself with sycophants. Invade Ukraine, great idea Mr Putin, be over in a week Mr Putin.
All he has achieved is to demonstrate to the world that Russia's much vaunted conventional forces are a bit of a **** show.
To cause the expansion of NATO, the very thing he has always had a bee in his bonnet about.
And, for the first time since the second world war, to have enemy troops occupying Russian soil.
Stalin must be spinning like a top.
The problem is that he has no obvious way out of the mess he has got himself into.
Actually winning is I think a distant dream for him.
I suspect if he could find an exit strategy that would not involve too great a loss of face he would probably grab it with both hands.
How to do that, whilst preserving the integrity of Ukraine is very hard to see.
The worry for me is that Trump loves to be the centre of attention. He may well seek to broker a deal, in order to proclaim himself the man who made peace. He will no doubt claim it is a great deal, maybe the greatest deal ever made. I doubt the Ukrainians will agree, since it is likely to involve them giving up territory, and quite possibly giving up any ambition to join NATO and or the EU.
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Oh god not this b******s again.
This has been debunked so many times.
Give us a break and go play conspiracy theories somewhere else please.
ey_tony
Established Member
If I thought you had a half a brain then I'd continue the debate but clearly you don't so let's leave it at that!
RobinBHM
Established Member
Tony, that’s not true
Tony, the irony is that this bit of Russian propaganda is repeated endlessly by the hard left…..it’s hilarious that Republicans and the left are both Putin apologists.
What you mean is Trump will stop supporting Ukraine and give a large chunk of Ukraine to Putin.
In other words Trump will surrender to Putin.
Putin will agree, then spend a few years rebuilding his military so he can then come start again.
Tony, do you not understand Putin is a brutal Imperialist dictator, he only understands Strength.
Putin will play Trump like a fiddle
RobinBHM
Established Member
Tony would you like me to go through the actual facts…..which prove your claim of a “CIA plot” is not true.
And before you try, I’ve heard all the nonsense about Victoria Nuland, so please don’t bother posting out of context clips
Sounds good to me.
ey_tony
Established Member
If nothing else you are consistent.. ever the apologist for the West to the end! Of course the CIA/West had a hand in the downfall of the pro-Russian leader of Ukraine. I'm not saying I disagree or agree with the West's complicity but to deny any involvement really does scrape the barrel where complicity is concerned and smacks of naivety.
Instead of welcoming Russia into the fold the EU and West have been goading Russia ever since the break up of the Soviet Union and now we are seeing the results.
With Trump back in charge in the USA the EU will be defalcating itself especially if Trump pulls the plug on the USA's NATO spending as I can't see him condoning paying the lion's share any longer and Europe is going to have to sort out its own mess for a change.
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