US Election November 5th

[BC'er]

@BC'er doing his Basil Fawlty impressions! Could have his own comedy show?

Didn't you notice? I'm making a guest appearance on yours - for as long as I find it slightly amusing.

You're wasting the time you have left Jacob blathering away in the futile hope that you're somehow "managing the discussion". The only people you're diverting are people who don't have the wits or the will to see what is going on anyway. In short you're preaching to the choir.

Yes, I know you have the typical belief in your own vastly important opinions and the compulsive need to share them with anyone who will at least pretend to listen, but even after a few weeks stopping by here I can see how futile it all is. "Neo-Luddism awake and resist!" What sort of rot is this anyway?

 

[John Brown]

Calm down.

 

[Noel]

Didn't you notice? I'm making a guest appearance on yours - for as long as I find it slightly amusing.

You're wasting the time you have left Jacob blathering away in the futile hope that you're somehow "managing the discussion". The only people you're diverting are people who don't have the wits or the will to see what is going on anyway. In short you're preaching to the choir.

Yes, I know you have the typical belief in your own vastly important opinions and the compulsive need to share them with anyone who will at least pretend to listen, but even after a few weeks stopping by here I can see how futile it all is. "Neo-Luddism awake and resist!" What sort of rot is this anyway?

That’s a disgraceful comment. Want to take it back?

 

[BC'er]

Oh hello Noel, I understand you invariably show up when Jacob gets into difficulties. A number of people have already told me about this by PM after you closed down the that 80 plus page thread on whatever topic it was.

As for wasting the time one has left, the same is true for all of us isn't? Jacob has stated he is over 80 so referring to that reality is not "disgraceful" in the least, it is a statement of genuine empathy in fact, despite our ideological differences.

However if you're looking for a reason to close the thread or ban me or something of that sort do as you like.

 

[BC'er]

Calm down.

Is that the best you've got or is this the pause that refreshes?

 

[John Brown]

Is that the best you've got or is this the pause that refreshes?

Neither. I just think you need to calm down.

 

[Noel]

Done.

@Noel
Apologies for intruding but I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of "disgraceful".
Someone needs an extended holiday.

No worries, saved me the bother.

 

[ey_tony]

Sounds like a full-time job to me. Can you give us some examples of where you go to find 'unbiased' information relating to current affairs?* BC'er was asked the same a few pages back but got all cryptic about it.

* In my opinion, it doesn't exist, but maybe that's just me.

Why don't you try looking for independent news sources which have no direct affiliation with the UK... Al Jazeera or the likes. They are more likely to report news factually and independently that has no government manipulation for political propaganda purposes.
I've travelled quite extensively and in doing so I've often watched news reports from different parts of the world which give a completely different perspective on news items to that of biased perspective reporting of the UK's media.

News sources that have no bias do exist but you have to take off the blinkers and look beyond the spheres of influence of the UK media, particular the news in print.

 

[RobinBHM]

but Marxists by definition are cultists which is why the organizations they create are invariably hierarchical, dictatorial and doctrinaire.

Are you sure?

I think you might be confusing Marxism with authoritarian regimes

Marxism is the opposite of what you claim:

a social, economic and political philosophy that analyses the impact of the ruling class on the laborers, leading to uneven distribution of wealth and privileges in the society.

 

[ey_tony]

Are you sure?

I think you might be confusing Marxism with authoritarian regimes

Marxism is the opposite of what you claim:

a social, economic and political philosophy that analyses the impact of the ruling class on the laborers, leading to uneven distribution of wealth and privileges in the society.

Name one single successful nation with Marxism as its fundamental philosophy? In fact name one 'truly' successful developed socialist nation which is not authoritarian?

 

[Agent_zed]

Why don't you try looking for independent news sources which have no direct affiliation with the UK... Al Jazeera or the likes. They are more likely to report news factually and independently that has no government manipulation for political propaganda purposes.
I've travelled quite extensively and in doing so I've often watched news reports from different parts of the world which give a completely different perspective on news items to that of biased perspective reporting of the UK's media.

News sources that have no bias do exist but you have to take off the blinkers and look beyond the spheres of influence of the UK media, particular the news in print.

I don't need news sources, I have listened directly to Trump and his associates. His words out of his mouth! Even his own VP is on record saying he thinks Trump might be the next Hitler. This isn't some left wing media spin, it was out of the mouth of JD Vance. Just one of 1000's of examples. over 100 of Trumps former government officials have denounced Trump, and they are all republicans.

You can keep pretending it's some media conspiracy if you want.

Please name the lies that the left wing media are pushing.

Please name the disgusting things the democrats have done

Or just keep ignoring the truth and saying it's media bias, I guess it makes no difference to me or the outcome of the election.

 

[Jacob]

Are you sure?

I think you might be confusing Marxism with authoritarian regimes

Marxism is the opposite of what you claim:

a social, economic and political philosophy that analyses the impact of the ruling class on the laborers, leading to uneven distribution of wealth and privileges in the society.

Exactly
I've been wondering about our un-woke in general, following the rage they got themselves into about Wikipedia, Snopes, and others. As though opening your eyes or "fact checking" in a discussion is somehow cheating and anyway all sources are probably part of a conspiracy .
I can see their logic: they tend to be idealogues in one way or another, committing themselves to a set of beliefs, not unlike religious faiths, unconditionally. But they make a huge mistake in assuming that the "opposition" (the dreadfully"woke") are merely arguing for another alternative faith or political ideology.
But we aren't (well I'm not!) - we are just arguing about how to make the best of things in the circumstances. The general question being what should we do now about things which need fixing, not just trying to impose an alternative ideal system at some future date, though down the line that's what we end up with, for better or worse - what we have now is very different from even 100 years ago.
It's a step by step process with a history going back to Magna Carta or any other point you choose - the only question in front of us is how to make the best of everything (now if possible) for the many not the few.
Here endeth my idle thought for the day!

 

[ey_tony]

Please name the disgusting things the democrats have done

The most disgusting thing I've witnessed is the Democrat's outright refusal to accept Trump as their president immediately after he won the election and the complicity of Democrat leaders in encouraging democrat supporters to take to the streets riot from the moment he took office.

They encouraged the 'he's not my president' soundbite and they were not going to accept his win and did everything in their power to bring him down from the moment he took office.
As far as I'm concerned they are no better than a corrupt third world political party that are less concerned about the nation and more concerned with being in power and their name alone is an oxymoron and an affront to true democracy.
Not unlike those who refused to accept the outcome of the Brexit vote in the UK.

So as far as I'm concerned as someone not influenced by either political persuasion in the USA, I've witnessed the appalling behaviour of the Democrats and I can see why Trump has such a following. I certainly wouldn't trust the Democrats to tell me what day it was unless I could verify it.

 

[RobinBHM]

Name one single successful nation with Marxism as its fundamental philosophy? In fact name one 'truly' successful developed socialist nation which is not authoritarian?

Countries with social democracies which are more sympathetic to socialist values are countries with much better living standards than the U.K. and better public services. For example Norway, Denmark, France even Germany.

Tony why don’t you broaden your mind a bit and look in to it?

 

[RobinBHM]

The most disgusting thing I've witnessed is the Democrat's outright refusal to accept Trump as their president immediately after he won the election and the complicity of Democrat leaders in encouraging democrat supporters to take to the streets riot from the moment he took office.

They encouraged the 'he's not my president' soundbite and they were not going to accept his win and did everything in their power to bring him down from the moment he took office.
As far as I'm concerned they are no better than a corrupt third world political party that are less concerned about the nation and more concerned with being in power and their name alone is an oxymoron and an affront to true democracy.
Not unlike those who refused to accept the outcome of the Brexit vote in the UK.

So as far as I'm concerned as someone not influenced by either political persuasion in the USA, I've witnessed the appalling behaviour of the Democrats and I can see why Trump has such a following. I certainly wouldn't trust the Democrats to tell me what day it was unless I could verify it.

Tony, Tony, Tony…….come on mate, , there is no equivalence with Trump and the MAGA movement.

 

[Blackswanwood]

The most disgusting thing I've witnessed is the Democrat's outright refusal to accept Trump as their president immediately after he won the election and the complicity of Democrat leaders in encouraging democrat supporters to take to the streets riot from the moment he took office.

They encouraged the 'he's not my president' soundbite and they were not going to accept his win and did everything in their power to bring him down from the moment he took office.
As far as I'm concerned they are no better than a corrupt third world political party that are less concerned about the nation and more concerned with being in power and their name alone is an oxymoron and an affront to true democracy.
Not unlike those who refused to accept the outcome of the Brexit vote in the UK.

So as far as I'm concerned as someone not influenced by either political persuasion in the USA, I've witnessed the appalling behaviour of the Democrats and I can see why Trump has such a following. I certainly wouldn't trust the Democrats to tell me what day it was unless I could verify it.

Here's a useful summary of what each of the main players in the Democratic Party did when they lost power in 2016 which seems to point to an acceptance that Trump won and doing all they could to ensure a smooth transition.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/13/politics/kfile-democrats-2016/index.html

I've asked you this before but you didn't give an explanation. How does people pointing out that they don't see Trump as representing their views and beliefs i.e the "he's not my president" differ from your comments posted on this forum about the current UK government? There's not much difference really and while I don't agree with a lot of what you say I wouldn't label you as disgusting.

 

[Agent_zed]

The most disgusting thing I've witnessed is the Democrat's outright refusal to accept Trump as their president immediately after he won the election and the complicity of Democrat leaders in encouraging democrat supporters to take to the streets riot from the moment he took office.

They encouraged the 'he's not my president' soundbite and they were not going to accept his win and did everything in their power to bring him down from the moment he took office.
As far as I'm concerned they are no better than a corrupt third world political party that are less concerned about the nation and more concerned with being in power and their name alone is an oxymoron and an affront to true democracy.
Not unlike those who refused to accept the outcome of the Brexit vote in the UK.

So as far as I'm concerned as someone not influenced by either political persuasion in the USA, I've witnessed the appalling behaviour of the Democrats and I can see why Trump has such a following. I certainly wouldn't trust the Democrats to tell me what day it was unless I could verify it.

Ok, well at least that is something I guess.

So in the US there is a legal right to free speech. Something that the Right have been banging on about continually (to the point the richest man in the world took over twitter and actively made it pro right wing). So there is no reason that people cannot voice their opinion that he shouldn't be in charge. Additionally people have the right to protest peacefully. To be clear though the democratic government peacefully handed over power to donald trump is the same manner that has been the norm for living memory.

It's somewhat hilarious though that you chose this as an example as it was Trump who even before the 2020 election began a disinformation campaign and actively tried to block mail in voting by appointing the head of the postal service, and then when he lost refused to accept defeat attempted an insurrection and has continued the lie to this day. Funny how he is now advocating mail in voting!? Did it suddenly become not corrupt?

In additional to the above, having actively sought to steal the election by force and an alternative electorate he caused a riot which killed and injured public and police. You can't say it's terrible that the dems encouraged riots but then pretend that donald trump didn't (and still doesn't) do that but much worse. He then left the whitehouse refusing to hand over power in the way that has always been done.

The idea that the dems are 'less concerned about the nation and more concerned with being in power' when compared to Trump is pretty much the most hilarious thing I've heard. Trump literally got a bi-partisan border bill quashed as it would have actually been good for the country and that would have been bad for his campaign.

Trump is literally advocating for putting journalists and comedians who disagree with him in jail, and you think it's the dems that are the thirdworld government?

 

[whereistheceilidh]

As a source of non-questionable/non-arguable information such as the Earth being an oblate spheroid and it's explanation, the distance to the moon or the effect the moon has on the tides then yes Wikipedia could be trusted as a source of scientific information.

However once emotive subjects which can draw polarised debate enter the discussion forum such as politics, global warming, religion, migration, EU membership etc, etc then NO, it can't be trusted as it's too accessible to those with a specific agenda to corrupt the information in favour of their argument so one has to be circumspect where choice of information source is important.

The same applies to news sources. I tend not to swallow the garbage put out by the left wing press such as the Guardian/Independent et al and the same applies to news from that of the right or news put out by both the BBC and ITV as from my past experience of them reporting events I'd have to say they're both biased and not to be trusted.
Instead I try to ascertain as many facts from news sources/information from beyond these shores through news sources which have no link either through prejudice or bias toward the UK's incumbent governments, that way I can draw safer conclusions than information from the British media or such as Wikipedia.

One only has to look at the announcements by governments of any rosette colour to recognise that they will quote and manipulate facts and figures which support their agenda rather than give a true picture of what is really happening so for that reason I prefer to do my own research and make up my mind as to the information accuracy.

The same applies to polarised posts on forums such as this. Most posts are just opinions with facts and in many cases adversarial which again is understandable so I will as far as I can look at the post content and see if there are valid points or if it contains information that could be verified through research.
As they say, you should never believe what you read in the papers' which is true, the same applies to forums and news media outlets alike...never trust any of them unless what they say can be backed up or verified by independent sources.

.....wish I had all that time, expertise ...& an unbiased oppion to do all that research.....

 

[John Brown]

Somebody's wearing upside-down spectacles.

 

[Chris152]

.....wish I had all that time, expertise ...& an unbiased oppion to do all that research.....

The idea that anyone has a neutral, unbiased opinion on such matters is silly - even the decision what to talk about, what to include and what to exclude, is itself a decision based on priorities, which are determined by particular values and thus bias. So we have to accept bias and argue within the parameters it sets.