US Election November 5th

[Agent_zed]

It won;t be Ukrainians. It will be America.

Europe has collectively paid almost double in defence of Ukraine, than the US.

America needed this war to happen and they will be the beneficiaries, unless Putian has other plans.

Russia didn't need to start it. There was no reason to do so. NATO was not at any time going to invade Russia! Russia has more than enough resources and land without Ukraine.

Russia could have been an economic superpower. It has the resources and the people. It was basically becoming European in the big western cities and had most of the same amenities as the west. It could have continued to get billions from oil and gas from europe and gradually become a manufacturing giant. All that was thrown away because 1 person wanted more than the billions he already had. That is the long and the short of it.

 

[Delaney]

Europe has collectively paid almost double in defence of Ukraine, than the US.

Russia didn't need to start it. There was no reason to do so. NATO was not at any time going to invade Russia! Russia has more than enough resources and land without Ukraine.

Russia could have been an economic superpower. It has the resources and the people. It was basically becoming European in the big western cities and had most of the same amenities as the west. It could have continued to get billions from oil and gas from europe and gradually become a manufacturing giant. All that was thrown away because 1 person wanted more than the billions he already had. That is the long and the short of it.

What?

The war was started by the US when they over threw a democratically elected leader. Why does this fact seem to escape those who support the war?
Everyone talks about rights and freedom but there was a western backed coup in Ukraine to kick this all off. Are we just breezing past that bit for convenience?

The Russian economy has grown under sanctions. 3.6% last year. Lots of other countries happy to buy Russian oil and gas, India and South America being the main ones.
Russia now has a well trained, battle hardened and advanced fighting military, which it didn’t before.
Bonds between BRICS nations has grown, especially between Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and India, pushing Russia into the arms of Americans bigger enemy.
Germany, the once jewel in the EU crown is going bust, it can no longer supply cheap energy for its manufacturing. VW now threatening to leavce Germany.

I have no idea where you're getting your information from. This war has been a disaster for Europe. It has strengthened our enemies and weakened us and the US. it’s had the opposite effect.

 

[Jake]

What?

The war was started by the US when they over threw a democratically elected leader. Why does this fact seem to escape those who support the war?

Because it isn't a fact, it's a lie and you've been sucking at the firehose of Russian propaganda again.

 

[selectortone]

Russia could have been an economic superpower. It has the resources and the people. It was basically becoming European in the big western cities and had most of the same amenities as the west. It could have continued to get billions from oil and gas from europe and gradually become a manufacturing giant. All that was thrown away because 1 person wanted more than the billions he already had. That is the long and the short of it

This is the whole thing in a nutshell. Well done!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

What?

The war was started by the US when they over threw a democratically elected leader. Why does this fact seem to escape those who support the war?
Everyone talks about rights and freedom but there was a western backed coup in Ukraine to kick this all off. Are we just breezing past that bit for convenience?

The Russian economy has grown under sanctions. 3.6% last year. Lots of other countries happy to buy Russian oil and gas, India and South America being the main ones.
Russia now has a well trained, battle hardened and advanced fighting military, which it didn’t before.
Bonds between BRICS nations has grown, especially between Russia, China, Iran, North Korea and India, pushing Russia into the arms of Americans bigger enemy.
Germany, the once jewel in the EU crown is going bust, it can no longer supply cheap energy for its manufacturing. VW now threatening to leavce Germany.

I have no idea where you're getting your information from. This war has been a disaster for Europe. It has strengthened our enemies and weakened us and the US. it’s had the opposite effect.

Deranged!

 

[Delaney]

 

[Delaney]

View attachment 188481

I’m sure there’re more to the story but if you step back, Yanukovych was a centrist and was credited with stearing Ukraine between both Russian and EU interests. It was known that Ukraine had also elected moderate and sometimes pro EU presidents. Russia had made no threats of military action, even regarding Crimea.
It seems however that on not signing the associate members agreement (likely under pressure from Russia), that elements in Ukraine had decided this was the time to strike, thus plunging Ukraine into civil war with one side backed by the west and the other backed by Russia.

Here is a a fair time line of events and the facts around the coup.




What people take for granted is that the east and south of Ukraine speak Russian, they identify strongly with Russia. The Ukraine economy was practically geared to and heavily integrated into the Russian economy.
This childlike idea that Ukraine was a free country and could do what it wants and that everyone wanted to be in the EU, is just self made propaganda.
No countires surrounding the US can do what they want. Do you bring out the violins for Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, All of south America? Because I haven’t heard any yet.

The truth is again and again, there was no conflict when Ukraine was nuteral. That is the simple truth of it and perhaps those who cannot face that reality don't want to because they are too emotionally inversted.

I’ve said my piece and moving on.

(this really wasn't what I imagined I spend my time on, on this forum. I just want europeans to stop dying)

 

[Blackswanwood]

I’m sure there’re more to the story but if you step back, Yanukovych was a centrist and was credited with stearing Ukraine between both Russian and EU interests. It was known that Ukraine had also elected moderate and sometimes pro EU presidents. Russia had made no threats of military action, even regarding Crimea.
It seems however that on not signing the associate members agreement (likely under pressure from Russia), that elements in Ukraine had decided this was the time to strike, thus plunging Ukraine into civil war with one side backed by the west and the other backed by Russia.

View attachment 188483

What people take for granted is that the east and south of Ukraine speak Russian, they identify strongly with Russia. The Ukraine economy was practically geared to and heavily integrated into the Russian economy.
This childlike idea that Ukraine was a free country and could do what it wants and that everyone wanted to be in the EU, is just self made propaganda.
No countires surrounding the US can do what they want. Do you bring out the violins for Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, All of south America? Because I haven’t heard any yet.

The truth is again and again, there was no conflict when Ukraine was nuteral. That is the simple truth of it and perhaps those who cannot face that reality don't want to because they are too emotionally inversted.

I’ve said my piece and moving on.

Thanks for listneing to my TED talk.

(this really wasn't what I imagined I spend my time on, on this forum. I just want europeans to stop dying)

There are a few facts missing from your explanation.

Yanukovych had previously tried to be elected in 2004, apparently won but it came to light that he had arranged for the vote to be rigged. This resulted in what was known as the Orange Revolution and he had to step down. He's always been Putin's man.

In 2010 he stood again and was elected - part of his pitch was that he would strengthen trading links with Europe and bring the country together. It's true that the OSCE confirmed that the election was held properly.

An agreement was reached with the EU and approved by the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine's finances were stretched but that's in no small part to Yanukovych and his mates embezzling $40bn over a 2 1/2 year period. (approximately the equivalent of the state budget).

Yanukovych refused to sign the agreement and tried unsuccessfully to renegotiate the terms of the deal with the EU. He then stepped away from the deal completely and announced plans to get closer to Russia. This resulted in protests in late 2013 (the Euromaidan protests). Yanukovych ordered that lethal force be used to dispel protesters - many members of the Ukrainian police refused to accept this order and went home. It's unproven but there are documents pointing to Russian support in planning and executing the crackdown Initially Yanukovych said he would install an interim unity government and hold elections but the protests grew and he fled to Russia. The parliament then met and voted by a massive majority to remove Yanukovich from office.

It's a matter of opinion whether this is a coup or the Ukrainian people reacting to the widespread corruption and not wanting to end up as Belarus is now. Obviously Russia was very quick to claim it was a coup. We'll all have our own view and just because it may not align with someone else's doesn't make it "childlike".

 

[Noel]

There are a few facts missing from your explanation.

Yanukovych had previously tried to be elected in 2004, apparently won but it came to light that he had arranged for the vote to be rigged. This resulted in what was known as the Orange Revolution and he had to step down. He's always been Putin's man.

In 2010 he stood again and was elected - part of his pitch was that he would strengthen trading links with Europe and bring the country together. It's true that the OSCE confirmed that the election was held properly.

An agreement was reached with the EU and approved by the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine's finances were stretched but that's in no small part to Yanukovych and his mates embezzling $40bn over a 2 1/2 year period. (approximately the equivalent of the state budget).

Yanukovych refused to sign the agreement and tried unsuccessfully to renegotiate the terms of the deal with the EU. He then stepped away from the deal completely and announced plans to get closer to Russia. This resulted in protests in late 2013 (the Euromaidan protests). Yanukovych ordered that lethal force be used to dispel protesters - many members of the Ukrainian police refused to accept this order and went home. It's unproven but there are documents pointing to Russian support in planning and executing the crackdown Initially Yanukovych said he would install an interim unity government and hold elections but the protests grew and he fled to Russia. The parliament then met and voted by a massive majority to remove Yanukovich from office.

It's a matter of opinion whether this is a coup or the Ukrainian people reacting to the widespread corruption and not wanting to end up as Belarus is now. Obviously Russia was very quick to claim it was a coup. We'll all have our own view and just because it may not align with someone else's doesn't make it "childlike".

Don't forget his that lovely chandelier he bought for his tiny little modest country retreat, a bargain at 13m USD. Must've saved up for years and years for it..........

As I said, a modest little country retreat..

 

[Spectric]

This war has been a disaster for Europe. It has strengthened our enemies and weakened us and the US. it’s had the opposite effect.

This all comes down to the fact that we do not like the idea of not being at the top table anymore, we have had our best days thanks to the victorians and we managed to do ok for many years afterwards but now we are going nowhere, all our major industries are no more and we are having to borrow billions to keep afloat whilst the east is growing and forming a new alliance with both money and technology which will benefit Russia and other countries that do not want the western lifestyle. Getting involved in this war has brought China, Iran and Russia closer because we have again demonstrated our willingness to impose western values on others and we fail to accept China's ever growing dominance as a superpower, there navy is already matching the US in size but probably more technically advanced.

 

[Delaney]

There are a few facts missing from your explanation.

Yanukovych had previously tried to be elected in 2004, apparently won but it came to light that he had arranged for the vote to be rigged. This resulted in what was known as the Orange Revolution and he had to step down. He's always been Putin's man.

In 2010 he stood again and was elected - part of his pitch was that he would strengthen trading links with Europe and bring the country together. It's true that the OSCE confirmed that the election was held properly.

An agreement was reached with the EU and approved by the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine's finances were stretched but that's in no small part to Yanukovych and his mates embezzling $40bn over a 2 1/2 year period. (approximately the equivalent of the state budget).

Yanukovych refused to sign the agreement and tried unsuccessfully to renegotiate the terms of the deal with the EU. He then stepped away from the deal completely and announced plans to get closer to Russia. This resulted in protests in late 2013 (the Euromaidan protests). Yanukovych ordered that lethal force be used to dispel protesters - many members of the Ukrainian police refused to accept this order and went home. It's unproven but there are documents pointing to Russian support in planning and executing the crackdown Initially Yanukovych said he would install an interim unity government and hold elections but the protests grew and he fled to Russia. The parliament then met and voted by a massive majority to remove Yanukovich from office.

It's a matter of opinion whether this is a coup or the Ukrainian people reacting to the widespread corruption and not wanting to end up as Belarus is now. Obviously Russia was very quick to claim it was a coup. We'll all have our own view and just because it may not align with someone else's doesn't make it "childlike".

My comment about childish notions was not about whether there was a coup. It was about the reality of living next to a super power.

I think the involvement of Nuland (a neocon hold over from Bush) and the 5 billion they spent in Ukraine forming opposition and business opposition (not to mention the infamous phone call that showed clear US involvement at every level, when Obama denied any), shows that this is a classic US regime change. That can be debated however.
The reports at the time was that the administration building were taken over by armed neo-nazi groups. That is a BBC report.

Ukraine corruption is par the course and it’s unlikely that the revolutionist in the west had the majority of the country behind them.

Anyway I think you raised fair points.

 

[spanner48]

That’s not a serious argument.
Putin got sick of appeasing Nato and the US. There was no war in Ukraine until Nato started threatening Russia with Nato weapons on its border, whilst deposing a democratically elected leader in the Maidan coup.
Non of this has anything to do with freedom or democracy, if it did, why was the US meddling in Ukraine to begin with?
5 minutes of basic thinking and switching off the bbc would lead any rational person to the same conclusion.
You have to ignore so many facts to arrive at the conclusion that this is Putin’s fault.
Putin is merely responding to events put in motion by the west.
I don’t like any of it or condone any of it but the facts speak for themself.

"deposing a democratically elected leader in the Maidan coup" ?

NO. After widespread and well-founded claims of pre-Russian [Yanukovich] vote-rigging in the 31.10.04 First Round Election voting. the second round on 21.11.04 was universally confirmed as "rigged" to give Yanukovich an apparent 3% win, against Exit Poll results showing him 11% behind Yuschenko.

The Parliament and the Supreme Electoral Court annulled the results - on the Exit Polls basis- and instituted a new second round on 26.12.04, under extremely close supervision. This gave Yuschenko 52% against 44% for Yanukovich. It was not "a coup"; it was a constitutionally and legally approved democratic process.

And let's not forget that, in the 1991 Referendum on Ukrainian Independence, every single Oblast - including Luhansk, Donetsk, Crimea and even Sebastopol [a Soviet Naval Base Area] voted heavily in favour of independence from Russia.

 

[spanner48]

I’m sure there’re more to the story but if you step back, Yanukovych was a centrist and was credited with stearing Ukraine between both Russian and EU interests. It was known that Ukraine had also elected moderate and sometimes pro EU presidents. Russia had made no threats of military action, even regarding Crimea.
It seems however that on not signing the associate members agreement (likely under pressure from Russia), that elements in Ukraine had decided this was the time to strike, thus plunging Ukraine into civil war with one side backed by the west and the other backed by Russia.

View attachment 188483
Here is a a fair time line of events and the facts around the coup.




What people take for granted is that the east and south of Ukraine speak Russian, they identify strongly with Russia. The Ukraine economy was practically geared to and heavily integrated into the Russian economy.
This childlike idea that Ukraine was a free country and could do what it wants and that everyone wanted to be in the EU, is just self made propaganda.
No countires surrounding the US can do what they want. Do you bring out the violins for Cuba, Venezuela, Mexico, Canada, All of south America? Because I haven’t heard any yet.

The truth is again and again, there was no conflict when Ukraine was nuteral. That is the simple truth of it and perhaps those who cannot face that reality don't want to because they are too emotionally inversted.

I’ve said my piece and moving on.

(this really wasn't what I imagined I spend my time on, on this forum. I just want europeans to stop dying)

Votes by Oblast in the 1991 Referendum on Independence from Russia: Luhansk, Donetsk, Crimea and even Sebastopol [a Soviet Naval Base Area] voted by significant majorities for independence

 

[Chris152]

Milton.

Trump, in 2017: 'Trump tweets that ‘cold’ East Coast ‘could use a little bit of’ global warming'
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/trump-global-warming-tweet/index.html

 

[spanner48]

Milton.

Trump, in 2017: 'Trump tweets that ‘cold’ East Coast ‘could use a little bit of’ global warming'
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/28/politics/trump-global-warming-tweet/index.html

So: Storm Milton turned out to be a wash-out . . . .

 

[Jake]

So: Storm Milton turned out to be a wash-out . . . .

Be fair - it was the first time the Dems and the Deep State spun up the Project Hurricane hardware, they'll do better next time.

 

[spanner48]

Be fair - it was the first time the Dems and the Deep State spun up the Project Hurricane hardware, they'll do better next time.

So: how do we watch Trump blaming it [whatever "it" is] on the Dems?

It's obviously a Trumpian storm: "AMERICA FIRST"

 

[Noel]

That was an interesting QT tonight.
Boll**ks ? Poor Fiona Bruce.

 

[Chris152]

I think it's high time we started arguing about this again.

Trump good - Harris bad.
Harris good - Trump bad.
And so on.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think it's high time we started arguing about this again.

Trump good - Harris bad.
Harris good - Trump bad.
And so on.

eh?

Trump is bad by any reasonable measure

I cant think of any possible scenario where Kamala Harris can be interpreted as bad compared to Trump

but I realise that wasnt the point you were making