Unsorted Redwood for External pattern 10 doors

[Pat r]

Hello,

Ive been asked by a client to make some external glazed double doors, they are in a very sheltered location (the roof protrudes around 600mm past the door and its not on the prevailing weather side. I'm trying to find timber from my locality that is suitable and within their budget. I managed to find some sapele but its more then the client wants to pay. I have found a yard selling unsorted redwood that I am going to go and pick through. Im wondering if this is suitable really? The doors and frame will be painted on the outside. The couple of times I have made doors before I have used quarter sawn oak but thats way out of their budget. I'm generally a worrier and like to make things as well as I can so not using the best timber slightly fills me with dread! any opinions? Ta

 

[rogxwhit]

The value of your time should be somewhat greater then the wood cost so it seems a bit odd that they're penny-pinching about that.

I haven't made redwood external doors for years - I couldn't see the point - but given your description of the location I suppose it's worth considering. Cut the tenons and mortices then dunk all the lower parts of the doors (and frame?) in a bucket of preservative and leave them to soak. Drain and leave to dry for a couple of days, then glue up.

 

[Adam W.]

Hello,

Ive been asked by a client to make some external glazed double doors, they are in a very sheltered location (the roof protrudes around 600mm past the door and its not on the prevailing weather side. I'm trying to find timber from my locality that is suitable and within their budget. I managed to find some sapele but its more then the client wants to pay. I have found a yard selling unsorted redwood that I am going to go and pick through. Im wondering if this is suitable really? The doors and frame will be painted on the outside. The couple of times I have made doors before I have used quarter sawn oak but thats way out of their budget. I'm generally a worrier and like to make things as well as I can so not using the best timber slightly fills me with dread! any opinions? Ta

You'll have to cut all of the sapwood off and choose some with tight growth rings, and as long as the paint and joinery is good you'll be OK.

 

[Doug71]

There isn't much wood in a pattern 10 door so I wouldn't have thought the price difference between softwood and hardwood would make that much difference to the final price once you have factored in labour, ironmongery, glazing etc.

The location does make a big difference, there are a pair of softwood doors on my property tucked in a corner which don't get much weather (no overhang above though) and they look no different to when I made and fitted them 15 years ago.

I always try and push the customer towards Accoya these days, on a pair of doors like you are making it might be an extra £250 but you won't get any call backs and know the doors won't move or start rotting even when they forget to paint them for a few years.

 

[rogxwhit]

You'll have to cut all of the sapwood off

With unsorted reds? You wouldn't have much material left! You don't get much choice with the ring count, either.

We suffer compared to the Victorians, who had access to old-growth forests I suspect, with larger diameter trees. Couple that with their liberal use of lead pastes and paint and their pine external joinery could be good for a century or two.

 

[Adam W.]

There's the rub.

 

[Pat r]

There isn't much wood in a pattern 10 door so I wouldn't have thought the price difference between softwood and hardwood would make that much difference to the final price once you have factored in labour, ironmongery, glazing etc.

The location does make a big difference, there are a pair of softwood doors on my property tucked in a corner which don't get much weather (no overhang above though) and they look no different to when I made and fitted them 15 years ago.

I always try and push the customer towards Accoya these days, on a pair of doors like you are making it might be an extra £250 but you won't get any call backs and know the doors won't move or start rotting even when they forget to paint them for a few years.

Thanks everyone for the speedy responses so far. The only easily available timbers to me is either this unsorted redwood or sapele. neither of which I'm experienced with. My reading of sapele is that it is alot better then redwood but there can be issues with stability also?. Are there any special things to look out for when selecting it? It does seem its used alot for doors and windows though. Ill chat to the client again. I'd be interested in trying accoya sometime, where does one buy it from?

 

[Doug71]

Whatever wood you go for look for some with a nice straight grain because there is (hopefully) more chance of it staying straight.

Sapele can move around a bit. Some pieces have interlocking grain which can be a nightmare to plane up (I don't have one of those fancy spiral block planers). Some paints don't like sticking to Sapele, I like to use Aluminium primer on it but I am a bit old school.

I get Accoya from Arnold Lavers but think most timber merchants stock it these days.

 

[johnnyb]

redwood is good for doors( imho of course). 2 points I do having made lots of doors in unsorted. I tend to make my doors at least 50mm thick often thicker. and I make them from 3 inch sawn . this allows me to lose the pith and splits. when you go to the timberyard it's relatively easy to sort the bits with mostly heart as well. remember at least one 35 inch piece of 9 inch has to be pith free for the bottom rail. I don't even think about the price of red but accoya is frightening. sapele isn't much cheaper and can be quite unstable.(mahogany could also be a bit movey)

 

[Doug71]

redwood is good for doors( imho of course). 2 points I do having made lots of doors in unsorted. I tend to make my doors at least 50mm thick often thicker. and I make them from 3 inch sawn . this allows me to lose the pith and splits. when you go to the timberyard it's relatively easy to sort the bits with mostly heart as well. remember at least one 35 inch piece of 9 inch has to be pith free for the bottom rail. I don't even think about the price of red but accoya is frightening. sapele isn't much cheaper and can be quite unstable.(mahogany could also be a bit movey)

Always find it really interesting how other people do things. I got some unsorted red in today for some barn doors, I need 4x2s for the stiles so I ordered 9x2 and will cut a 4x2 off each side leaving the pith from the middle as waste.

Also on todays delivery was some Sapele and some Accoya, when I get the invoice I will post the m3 price for comparison.

 

[johnnyb]

"leaving the pith as waste" often means the pith appears on a face as it wanders. also the growth rings are small diameter even near the heart. your stuck with 44mm thick( or less) with 4 by 2. I find a thicker door a bit more stable( and more important a bit more premium feeling)
I'm sure that 44mm was a reflection of the potential finished size of 2 inch sawn red. but getting the long stiles flat and split/ pith free in 6mm is often hard. I suggest any timber door( apart from accoya) expected to hold tight sizes in full exposure is a worry. I always encourage a canopy or suggest a compo door.
even teak rots( I was cutting some old teak windows up from a long defunct( and demolished) cricket pavilion window) it was a really simple profile basically 5 by 2 with 2 grooves on the 2 inch and chamfered corners the thick single pane glass was held with 2 chunky beads the outer screwed with brass cupped screws. the had started to rot at the ends and where the water sat. not loads but quite deep.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm assuming the 2 grooves were for window sill and bottom.

 

[Adam W.]

The pith shouldn't wander about that much on quality redwood, unless it has been converted badly. Cutting it off and discarding it is the way it should be done.

 

[whereistheceilidh]

Would suggest redwood will need a great deal of care and preservative as has been mentioned. Also tends to move a bit. If you can get it, there is larch in Wales and someone may be cutting & drying it. It is durable and more sustainable than some other timber.

 

[Pat r]

Yes fair. The problem with larch around here that i've found is that is rarely the European one and so it is fast growing and very knotty. I use it for more construction based projects but have never found any locally grown that would hit joinery grade.

 

[mr rusty]

I get Accoya from Arnold Lavers but think most timber merchants stock it these days.

so do I. I have made a few pairs of doors in accoya now, and I won't go back to anything else. Redwood that is commonly available in my experience just isn't stable enough, whereas accoya comes very straight as "rough sawn" and takes only a couple of passes through a thicknesser to get really nice straight sections. It machines very easily (although is a bit brittle so always need spelch blocks), but best of all, particularly for external joinery, it just does not move about. You can construct doors with minimal gaps knowing they will not swell and bind.

The stability of the timber enhances the durability of paint finishes as well.

I domino mine with 12mm dominos and PU glue. If they are external opening, make sure they have stays or arresters, because I have heard (but not my experience) that an accoya door blown open in the wind blown back against the frame can split at the hinges because the timber is a little brittle to shocks.

I would sell the benefits for the bit of extra cost rather than risk return visits to fettle a door pair that have twisted or moved.

 

[NFav]

The problem with some customers is that they want to screw the price down.
I have this a lot as a self employed mechanic, but now it's a case of 'these are my standards, that is what I work to, if I'm too expensive for you other places are available that will fit cheap parts, but in the long run it could be more trouble'. But it's the customers money, their budget, and if they don't want to afford me, I'm not offended.
In short, don't let other people dictate what standards they want you to work down to, at the end of the day it's your name that will be praised or knocked depending on how well the doors perform or last. Don't be afraid to say no I'm not doing it that way.

 

[johnnyb]

I'm of the opinion that if I insisted on accoya I wouldn't get much business. I think accoya is a good product as well but the cost makes it out of the question around here mostly. down south I think its a more sensible equation. I reckon redwood is stronger than açcoya as well. a sapele door whilst nice is really really heavy. i would prefer a traditionally made red deal door to a domino made accoya door. but that's because domino's are a cheapening of the craft. ( imho)

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[Jacob]

If you mean graded "unsorted" Swedish or Russian redwood it's top grade stuff perfectly good for doors. Millions of traditional doors and windows have been made with it. With proper design and maintenance they'll last forever. I'd highly recommend linseed oil paint and avoid modern paints. No preservative needed.
What is a "pattern 10" door?
PS had a look. "pattern 10" seems to mean industrial fully glazed modern door. I wouldn't bother making one they are dead cheap from lots of suppliers.
Also they look totally unsuited for external joinery. Just not enough structure
Who designed and numbered these patterns? Is it some sort of standard? Is there a pattern book?