Trading Labour

[Midnight]

Steve....

I hear what you're saying... and you're not the first to say as much along the same lines...

However... I've a couple of exceptions for ya..

to date I've only built 2 projects (one ongoing / in progress) that haven't been either for the house or the shop, i.e. intended for A.N. Other... Without casting aspersions on them, there's no way either of em could have afforded a pro to build the projects that I've provided them with... if I hadn't done it, it wouldn't have been done... That being the case, who looses..????

In both instances, I've tried to value the work done as accurately as I can using pro rates as a basis (if a pro were to build a replacement for this, it'd cost £X+, so insure for £Y). In both cases the recipients have ended up with bespoke items that can't be store bought... In both instances, jaws dropped when I quoted the value of the projects as the last thing I want to do is undermine the value or standards of professional work.

Irresponsible..????

 

[Chris Knight]

Steve,

I sympathise with your point of view and agree with it in part. However, economics 101 says that the value (cost) of something is the preferred alternative and where this is apparent and available, with no bar on its use (Chinese peasant labour) then that is the value of someone's work in economic terms.

Professional associations have always sought to erect barriers and make a big thing out of the "Arts and Mysteries"of their profession. Folk like lawyers and doctors seem still to be very successful in this regard but wood workers lost the plot when machinery started to make some of their arts and mysteries unnecessary so as long as there are no barriers to trade people are not likely to place a higher value on things.

After many years of holding a quite different opinion, I have come to the view that there should be barriers on trade and a host of other things too. The reason is simply that the free movement of capital and labour encourages the world population to increase at the expense of almost everything else, including forests, drinking water, animals and everything needed to sustain life. I'd rather the world had a lot fewer people living better quality lives (of course I want to be one of them! So does everyone else and that's where the trouble starts..)

 

[CHJ]

Professional associations have always sought to erect barriers and make a big thing out of the "Arts and Mysteries"of their profession. Folk like lawyers and doctors seem still to be very successful in this regard

I think a measure of greed is in there somewhere as well. As a (ex)civil servant (engineering) I have willingly certified literally hundreds of documents for friends and neighbors and work colleagues for official purposes without ever a thought of asking for renumeration. Upon my wife having to get the same sort of verification we were appalled to note that our local surgery doctors wanted £35 for their signature.

After many years of holding a quite different opinion, I have come to the view that there should be barriers on trade and a host of other things too. The reason is simply that the free movement of capital and labour encourages the world population to increase at the expense of almost everything else, including forests, drinking water, animals and everything needed to sustain life.

I have come to the same conclusions re trade barriers but for a slightly different reason, having been fortunate enough to spend some time as a tourist in China and having enough time to see some of the grass roots poverty that still abounds there then I believe we in the more developed countries have a moral obligation to ensure that the 'worker' gets a bigger chunk of the pie than currently distributed by the multi-national trading empires. Of course a formally 'peasant existence' worker is bound to jump at a doubling of income for making a widget for sale in the UK but I think it is morally wrong that he could be paid 100 times as much per hour and still only add a few pence to the finished price here.

Gets off soap box as Yandles calls.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting stuff

On the issue Steve raise about the amateur taking money from the pro. I think this is a very valid point and one we should bear in mind; especially in the difficult world of making bespoke furniture for a living. My only concern on a PC front is the lack of knowledge shown by 'IT 'pros' :roll:

As you know, I am an engineer specialising in computer control of dynamic equipment. I built my first PC in 1989. In every company I have worked in, the 'IT manager' has known a small fraction as much as me about computers they look after - whether hardware or software.
Now this may appear to be some kind of idle boast on my part but it is not meant to be.

It is meant to highlight the appalling levels of ignorance a lot of IT 'pros' have. Sure, they can fix specific problems on specific (company) systems, but that is not the same as having knowledge about or understanding of the systems.

The prime example of ignorance is the 'technicians' (oh yeah?) in PCworld. Hannah, (my 11 year daughter) knows more about PCs than the entire staff of our local PCWorld!! You would not believe some of the things I have overheard 'techs' telling customers in shops or the advice friends and family have recieved from these idiots :twisted:

 

[tim]

On the issue Steve raise about the amateur taking money from the pro. I think this is a very valid point and one we should bear in mind; especially in the difficult world of making bespoke furniture for a living.

Thanks for thinking of us Tony.

However, I think that it would be fair to say that most of the stuff built by hobbyists would not be made except for the fact that you are doing it for a hobby or favour.

Your main point is spot on and I will come on to that in a sec, but first I want to comment on some of the previous contributors points

There will always be someone who gives you mate's rates for something and that's what friends do. Both parties have to have responsibilities here. You, the provider, need to clearly explain to whoever the receiver is how much work is involved - most have no idea - if they did I bet none of them would ask unless it was a tiny job. The receiver shouldn't take the mick.
It seems to me that the receivers of your services as depicted above would probably be absolutely horrified if what they thought they had asked you to do was the equivalent of changing a washer in a tap or fix a leaky ballcock but was in fact a replacement of their entire central heating and water supply. Obviously (if they are proper friends) they would call in a pro or at least offer to pay you. Without being too blunt - you are all (I'm assuming) adults - you don't have to do it!

Now on to Tony's mainpoint about knowledge and quality. This is exactly where the bespoke maker's problem lies esp if the kind of work carried out is in the kitchen and similar furniture. For PC World read MFI. There is no point me griping about it but it is true.

The consumer base in general believes what it is told and if you tell people loud enough and long enough, that you are the source of all things furniture (PC) then they will come. Its what advertising does, first changes attitude and then behaviour.

So if you tell consumers that what you offer is bespoke when in fact its nothing more than the odd wine rack and infil panel and no one else with an equal voice contradicts then guess what! Along with the fact that we now live in a throw away, borrow against the future society, consumers are happy to spend half the cost of a bespoke kitchen that will last them a lifetime on a kitchen made of weetabix that will fall apart after a few years, safe in the knowledge that they probably won't be living there by then anyway. Some people who can afford to make the choice (a very important distinction) realise the benefit of long term investment in furniture others don't. We just have to make sure that there are enough of them.

So Tony's justifiable disappointment with PC world matches mine with MFI and the like - muppets telling people things that patently are either partial truths or just plain rubbish. It is the way of the world and it was ever thus. I don't have an answer, it is frustrating but it does help me to define my target market better.

When you couple this with the fact that furniture is not an emergency purchase (by any stretch) even compared to getting the PC fixed then sometimes I sit here thinking why am I doing this but then when I deal with customers who do appreciate the differences I know exactly why.

So maybe for the guys who are being put upon by family and friends to rebuild PC systems after an inadvertent wander into a swedish nurse site by father in law or teenage son has virused up the machine, the best course of action maybe to point them at a reputable PC doctor and not at PC world. On the furniture front, if you don't want to do it for them, likewise point them to a good local guy so that they don't wander into MFI.
They may not be able to afford it in the end but they also will realise what the real costs of what they are asking you to do are and you can ease your conscience that at least you've given the little guy a chance.

I think I wandered off topic in the middle a little but I hope I brought it back at the end :roll:

Cheers

Tim