To buy old saws or new? Is the question.

[spanner48]

I restore and renovate historic hand and tenon saws from the 19th and 18th centuries. Sharpening is a part of the process.

Basic sharpening, on a saw that has just gone dull, is not difficult. Simple for rip-cut; a little more complicated for crosscut; quite tricky for fleam-cut.

But that is only rarely the case. Most saws are sharpened by their owners - the sawyers. Who are:

1: Either right-, or left-handed, or:

2: Lazy. So:

1: For right-handed sawyers, sharpening the front face of the teeth leaning AWAY [i.e: to the left, as you look along the toothline from the rear] is more natural and easier than sharpening those leaning to the right. So sawyers - who mostly sharpen from one side - sharpen more deeply on the one, than on the other. Over time and multiple sharpenings, every second gullet gets deeper than its fore-and-aft neighbours. So you get "Cow & Calf" teeth, with a small tooth "riding' on the back of the bigger tooth in front. If carried on long enough, the Calf tooth disappears, leaving the saw with toothing of half the original, and all leaning to one side. So the saw cuts in circles.

2: In sawing, the strongest thrust and therefore the greatest wear occurs around the midpoint of the stroke. Sawyers just want the saw sharp along its entire length, so tend to sharpen more intensively around the midpoint – rather than evenly, along the full length. Over time and multiple sharpenings, the sawline hollows. The result is that, towards the end of a stroke, the hollowed rear meets the wood, and brings the saw to an abrupt, jarring halt. Very uncomfortable.

The answer is Jointing – either half- or full jointing: filling off the tips of the teeth to generate a smooth [and ultimately a straight] toothline.

Half-jointing is for "Cow-&-Calf' teeth, and involves filing [with a long file, lengthways] along the points until the lowest teeth are just being touched. Then sharpening the protruding teeth, pushing sideways to right, then left, so the metal is removed from the larger tooth, leaving the smaller one barely touched. Once all the teeth have been sharpened to just remove the blunt points, the toothline should be correct, but may want resetting

Full jointing involves filing or grinding away the less-worn high parts of the toothline - typically the toe and particularly the heel - until sighting along the toothline shows straight. Then recutting the teeth from the high parts, and resetting the whole.

A light-to-medium sharpening of a blunt toothline in good order can take as little as 3 minutes; a heavy half-jointing can take an hour; a full jointing [particularly where the high zone teeth have completely disappeared, and need to be remarked out] can take half a day.

 

[Jacob]

I've got a table saw, bandsaw, mitre/chop saw, jigsaw, router, multi-tool and circular saw, and would suspect most of us here have the same or more.

I get the allure of hand sawing a piece of lumber with a quality wood handled saw and crafting it into something, but these handsaws were from a time when the alternative machines didn't exist or were vastly too expensive to the average person.

If someone has the time and desire to handsharpen a ripsaw to cut down a board to the required size then I won't knock it, but I can't see a lot of people reaching for the rip saw for anything but the smallest of cuts these days. I would perhaps cut 2ft max if it was just one cut and only if it was quicker (or quieter in some instances) to grab a saw than setup the table saw.

Tennon saws I could see more of a reason for having a really nice one that can be resharpened.

I know that sounds lazy and defeatist to a certain extent, but the reality for most of us is that we only have so much time to get something done, and sharpening multiple saws to then take 10x as long to size a piece of wood for a project is probably more time than we have.

Sometimes the only thing for the job. Can be fast work for normal sized sorts of stuff, but there is a bit of technique involved. Scroll down here: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-saw-buying-advice.127121/#post-1416285
Or chap here 4 minutes in (he talks too much!). Easier to put it over two stools IMHO.

 

[NorthernSteve]

No!

However, it's not the new/old debate that I'd take issue with. It's the professional sharpening bit.

As with most things to do with hand tool woodworking, the key to getting the most out of the tools is maintaining them well; and the key to that is usually keeping them sharp.

If you want to get the best out of traditional panel and back saws, you need to learn to sharpen them.

Learning to sharpen a saw does not just result in you having a sharp saw that cuts straight, but it is also the best way to gain appreciation and understanding of how teeth angles and offset affect the way the saw operates.

And the best thing about it is that it's not particularly difficult. You can get a lot done with a baton with a slot cut down its length, a vice and a triangular file.

I'd suggest starting with a second hand 7tpi rip panel saw. The Aussie Woodshed chap is producing some interesting starter videos around saw sharpening which I think would be a good place to start for information about how to sharpen:



I'd start by simply sharpening the teeth for rip. Just taking an old rip saw, making some cuts, and then sharpening the teeth and sawing again can be a really satisfying experience.

The simplest sharpen is rip with the side of the tooth facing forward vertically. That means holding the triangular file such that the file side facing the saw handle is vertical (with the top edge of the saw held horizontal in a vice)

Then try sharpening a crosscut saw. That's more complicated because the teeth need to be cut at alternating angles and with more of a slope than rip teeth. But it really isn't that hard.

Then go on to settings the teeth. With a sawset it really isn't difficult. More repetitious and fiddly than anything else.

If you then look at jointing (levelling the top of the teeth before sharpening) you'll have the basic skills.

Once you've got the basics you can start experimenting with different configurations. I think you'll then appreciate the benefit of having a number of saws configured for different cuts.

Then I think you'll get the best out of the hand saw experience

And one last thing, getting a good table lamp and some magnifying glasses can make all the difference. Keeping track of which tooth is next to be filed is a nightmare if you can't see what you're doing.

Thanks Rob, I appreciate your considered response and candour. I think you are quite correct in terms of the best way to know a tool is to be involved in the maintenance if not the making of it.

 

[NorthernSteve]

I restore and renovate historic hand and tenon saws from the 19th and 18th centuries. Sharpening is a part of the process.

Basic sharpening, on a saw that has just gone dull, is not difficult. Simple for rip-cut; a little more complicated for crosscut; quite tricky for fleam-cut.

But that is only rarely the case. Most saws are sharpened by their owners - the sawyers. Who are:

1: Either right-, or left-handed, or:

2: Lazy. So:

1: For right-handed sawyers, sharpening the front face of the teeth leaning AWAY [i.e: to the left, as you look along the toothline from the rear] is more natural and easier than sharpening those leaning to the right. So sawyers - who mostly sharpen from one side - sharpen more deeply on the one, than on the other. Over time and multiple sharpenings, every second gullet gets deeper than its fore-and-aft neighbours. So you get "Cow & Calf" teeth, with a small tooth "riding' on the back of the bigger tooth in front. If carried on long enough, the Calf tooth disappears, leaving the saw with toothing of half the original, and all leaning to one side. So the saw cuts in circles.

2: In sawing, the strongest thrust and therefore the greatest wear occurs around the midpoint of the stroke. Sawyers just want the saw sharp along its entire length, so tend to sharpen more intensively around the midpoint – rather than evenly, along the full length. Over time and multiple sharpenings, the sawline hollows. The result is that, towards the end of a stroke, the hollowed rear meets the wood, and brings the saw to an abrupt, jarring halt. Very uncomfortable.

The answer is Jointing – either half- or full jointing: filling off the tips of the teeth to generate a smooth [and ultimately a straight] toothline.

Half-jointing is for "Cow-&-Calf' teeth, and involves filing [with a long file, lengthways] along the points until the lowest teeth are just being touched. Then sharpening the protruding teeth, pushing sideways to right, then left, so the metal is removed from the larger tooth, leaving the smaller one barely touched. Once all the teeth have been sharpened to just remove the blunt points, the toothline should be correct, but may want resetting

Full jointing involves filing or grinding away the less-worn high parts of the toothline - typically the toe and particularly the heel - until sighting along the toothline shows straight. Then recutting the teeth from the high parts, and resetting the whole.

A light-to-medium sharpening of a blunt toothline in good order can take as little as 3 minutes; a heavy half-jointing can take an hour; a full jointing [particularly where the high zone teeth have completely disappeared, and need to be remarked out] can take half a day.

Thanks Spanner - much appreciate advice

 

[NorthernSteve]

Sometimes the only thing for the job. Can be fast work for normal sized sorts of stuff, but there is a bit of technique involved. Scroll down here: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-saw-buying-advice.127121/#post-1416285
Or chap here 4 minutes in (he talks too much!). Easier to put it over two stools IMHO.

Thanks Jacob, appreciated.

 

[NorthernSteve]

I've got a table saw, bandsaw, mitre/chop saw, jigsaw, router, multi-tool and circular saw, and would suspect most of us here have the same or more.

I get the allure of hand sawing a piece of lumber with a quality wood handled saw and crafting it into something, but these handsaws were from a time when the alternative machines didn't exist or were vastly too expensive to the average person.

If someone has the time and desire to handsharpen a ripsaw to cut down a board to the required size then I won't knock it, but I can't see a lot of people reaching for the rip saw for anything but the smallest of cuts these days. I would perhaps cut 2ft max if it was just one cut and only if it was quicker (or quieter in some instances) to grab a saw than setup the table saw.

Tennon saws I could see more of a reason for having a really nice one that can be resharpened.

I know that sounds lazy and defeatist to a certain extent, but the reality for most of us is that we only have so much time to get something done, and sharpening multiple saws to then take 10x as long to size a piece of wood for a project is probably more time than we have.

Thanks AZ

 

[NorthernSteve]

This. I like different saws for different jobs, and old saws I can tailor to my needs. My fave saw is my 1908 ex military air arm, sharpened rip to 4TPI, it eats through a 2"thick board with ease, trying to make that cut with a generic hardpoint saw would be painful.

I do find some of the old saws very alluring, I can see a time where I have a collection of them on a dedicated part of my workshop wall.

 

[NorthernSteve]

when I was doing my apprenticeship I bought a few saw files, a saw set, and got a little setup together to sharpen hand saws. You might also want to buy or make one of those funny screwdrivers for the handle screws. Split driver ?

I learnt how to do it, and will honestly say it’s a pain in the backside. I might pick it back up when I retire as a hobbyist ! I’m all for buying old and refurbing personally, but shops I’ve worked for have had for example a set of brand new lie Nielsen backsaws as the shop set and they are absolutely superb. I won’t be replacing mine with them though, unless I win the lottery. They also still need sharpening.

There’s nothing wrong at all with buying old saws and taking them to a saw doctor.. if you can find one locally ! Some offer postal services too. I think the last one I took was £12 for a fine tooth, angled sharpen on a dovetail saw. With the best will in the world how likely are you to pay this more than once a year ? I suppose perhaps take one for a sharpen, and work out how long it’s lasted you..

How much is your time worth ? Do you enjoy the satisfaction of learning these skills and employing them, or would you rather spend your time blunting the saw practicing dovetails or making furniture ? It’s also worth bearing in mind you might (as I did) spend anywhere from half a day upwards sanding/possibly refinishing handles, cleaning up saw plates, messing around with screw lengths or re mushrooming (peening ?? Never much of a metalworker) handle tightness etc.

I will of course caveat the above by saying I don’t think the same is true of for example hand planes or chisels, which in my opinion it’s important to fettle to your needs, and of course learn how to and have in house facilities to sharpen. But to me this is because they need much more frequent sharpening, and for example fettling a plane to flat, fettling all the mating faces/frog settings etc gives you a more thorough understanding of the use of a plane and how to set it up properly. I would argue the same is not really true of a saw, as long as it’s sharp and has the appropriate set.
I bought old, fettled everything to how I wanted it, learnt how to sharpen, but I’ll continue to send them away for sharpening.

Thanks - their is a superb saw sharpener by all accounts relatively near to me, hence the thought. I too, can't justify the steep prices from some of the top brand name saws.

 

[paulrbarnard]

I've got a table saw, bandsaw, mitre/chop saw, jigsaw, router, multi-tool and circular saw, and would suspect most of us here have the same or more.

You might be surprised how many don’t have a table saw or bandsaw. I have a tracksaw for sheet material and a jigsaw for cutting out the corners in worktops kind of thing but most of my sawing for ‘woodworking” is by hand. Hence having and enjoying quite a selection of handsaws. I even made my own fretsaw and coping saw.

 

[RobNichols]

You might be surprised how many don’t have a table saw or bandsaw. I have a tracksaw for sheet material and a jigsaw for cutting out the corners in worktops kind of thing but most of my sawing for ‘woodworking” is by hand. Hence having and enjoying quite a selection of handsaws. I even made my own fretsaw and coping saw.

I agree

I have a table saw and bandsaw, but the former I use rarely. I did have a mitre saw but got rid of it - I don't miss it at all. I much prefer doing cross cuts with a handsaw. Less noise and mess, and you are working with a tool that is much less likely to deprive you of digits.

 

[Orraloon]

Sometimes the only thing for the job. Can be fast work for normal sized sorts of stuff, but there is a bit of technique involved. Scroll down here: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/hand-saw-buying-advice.127121/#post-1416285
Or chap here 4 minutes in (he talks too much!). Easier to put it over two stools IMHO.

To get a good rip saw then old saws are your best option because hardly anyone makes them any more. Some bespoke makers still offer them but at bespoke prices. A modern hard point will rip but nowhere as good or as easy as a good old rip saw made for the job.
Regards
John

 

[BentonTool]

Like most of my Brothers above, I have restored quite a few vintage hand saws, and use them regularly. They are enticing for multiple reasons. They are often more comfortable in the hand, have better balance, and are generally more visually appealing. Not to mention that you will perhaps be saving a fine old tool from the scrap heap.

I suspect that many of the newer higher-quality saws, made by the some of the modern companies mentioned below, are every bit as good or better than a quality vintage saw. Nevertheless, consider that although a new Lie-Nielsen or Bad Axe handsaw is an extremely fine tool (I own none), you can purchase ten or fifteen vintage saws for the price of one of these modern saws.

The restoration process can then be a bit time-consuming and tedious, but I assure you that it will be both extremely satisfying, and will, in the end, arm you with a much-cherished possession that will from that moment henceforth, require very little upkeep. You will also have learned much from the experience, that will serve you well on future projects. As in all things, the more you do it, the easier it becomes.

In my experience, very few quality vintage saws are beyond salvation, and can often be put back into service with simply a good cleaning and sharpening. Rusty saw plates, with the possible exception of only the most heavily pitted ones (or plates that have "crystalized" hard and can no longer be set), clean up well-enough to produce very fine-cutting saws. A little rust and pitting do not impair a saw's ability to sharpen and cut well.

On the topic of sharpening handsaws; I have but one question: how many of us send our plane blades out for professional resharpening? How many send our carving tools to a professional for sharpening? Drill bits? Draw-knives? Few to none, I would wager.
If I may quote Ian Kirby, who when queried on the topic of mounting a board in a vise at an angle so that you cut dovetail kerfs straight downwards said; "No, there is no virtue in that"...

I do not mean to be critical or demeaning! I simply believe that resharpening handsaws is simply part of the tool maintenance process. It is simply yet another skill that is within the scope of us all, and should be counted amongst our numerous (and often hard-won) skill-sets. Once the knowledge and skill are acquired, it it a relatively rapid process to sharpen a saw and get immediately back to work! No need to spend money on having something done by a "professional", especially when you can do it yourself more quickly. No need to wait for the sharpening when you could be back at work. I am sure that most of the woodworkers of old sharpened their own saws.

In closing, I agree with my Brother above who emphasized the need for:
1) good lighting,
2) magnification headsets of some manner (for most of us older Gents ),
3) and some type of pigmentation applied to the teeth.
On the latter topic of pigmentation, I have, in the past, applied chalk along the tooth-line. That works reasonably well, and assists in keeping the files from clogging with metal, but is a bit messy.
I cannot understand the practice of going through the arduous process of applying a "Sharpie" ink pen to the teeth when products such as "Dykem" are available. It can be brushed-on very quickly (brush is built into the cap), and does a far better job at inking the teeth. It is quite inexpensive, and a small bottle lasts a long time.

 

[Woodworker Ireland]

I regularly see old Disston saws (and other quality makes) for sale at cheap prices <£10. Shiny new saws with nice wooden handles run into the hundreds of pounds. Does one get what one pays for with new saws, or is there an element of vanity in having the expensive ones that determines the price? Is it sensible to buy quality old saws and to have them profesisionally sharpened?
Your erudite responses appreciated.
Thanks

I used Disston saws years ago. We have all moved on to modern chop saws and circular saws. Just hang them up on display there part of our history.
I also learned to sharpened them. Great for there time but nowadays if you want to make money working with wood modern tools is king.

 

[NorthernSteve]

You might be surprised how many don’t have a table saw or bandsaw. I have a tracksaw for sheet material and a jigsaw for cutting out the corners in worktops kind of thing but most of my sawing for ‘woodworking” is by hand. Hence having and enjoying quite a selection of handsaws. I even made my own fretsaw and coping saw.

Part of the woodworking journey for me is collecting and renovating old tools. I last refurbished this Veneer Hammer, acquired for the sum of 50p from a car boot sale. It has had some use, hence a few scratches and dings. I suspect to buy such a thing from Veritas or the likes would cost c£40