The joys of electric car ownership!

[Fergie 307]

Why would it be free? Very easy to tell which cars are being charged and by how much. For sure the infrastructure would have to be covered as BBC well.

Just in case people haven’t see it. This already exists for busses in some places with charging areas at stops.

I think they did it in Paris with a kind of Boris bike scheme where the car was charged through an inductive loop embedded in the designated parking spaces. No idea If it is still going.

 

[Ozi]

In my(very small sample size) experience, it seems to be the "petrol heads" who are the strongest advocates of hydrogen powered cars. Whether this is because they imagine hydrogen cars will be ICE(as I understand things they'll actually be EVs with fuel cells), or whether they just want anything but EVs, or whether it's some other reason, I can't guess. What I do know is that the much despised "experts" seem to think hydrogen cars are a non starter. I don't know enough about it to argue with the experts, and I strongly suspect forum members don't either, so it's probably down to where you get your news from.
The idea of being able to convert your gas boiler to hydrogen, and use cheap renewable energy to electrolyse water does sound very attractive, so I have to assume that the drawbacks are immense. Also, I think it's important to remember that where there are vested interests there will be misinformation. We already know that the fossil fuel giants have used the same PR/whitewashing firms as the tobacco firms did.

Lastly, I have to say that under road charging at bottlenecks seems like a crazy idea to me. Surely you want people to avoid bottlenecks?

There is currently a lot of investment going into hydrogen fuel cell development not just automotive but looking to do a lot of the jobs currently done by diesel engines in places away from the grid. Hydrogen replacing domestic gas has some issues the most problematic of which is that it is far more difficult to seal pipes well enough to contain hydrogen, I saw an estimate can't remember the source saying we could expect 50 times as many explosions if we ran our gas networks on hydrogen, I have only seen the result of one house explosion in Coventry quite a few years ago but would not want to see another. It would possibly (just my opinion) be easier to use hydrogen stored in an outdoor cylinder to generate electricity for domestic use, I haven't tried to work out the efficiencies of that , just thinking that any leakage would float away rather than cause an explosion

 

[Fergie 307]

There is also an artificial man made fuel that has been proven to work as well as petrol and requires no modifications to be made to an ICE vehicle before use. It's also carbon neutral the only thing holding it back it the cost to make it. How they can justify not producing it when the cost of the human race is in the balance is beyond me.

I think you will find the problem is it produces many of the same emissions as a car running on fossil fuel, and from what I have seen the claims to be carbon neutral seem a bit optimistic. So not really a step forward. EV are undoubtedly where we should be going, just a question of how best to power them.

 

[Ozi]

The BBC program was very poorly informed imo. There is far more innovation going on and technology is improving at an exponential rate.
All it takes is political will. Just look at Norway where most cars sold are electric.
For a more optimistic and informed view have a look the Fully Charged and Everything Electric podcasts / YouTube channel.
China has seen the future and is now so far ahead of the rest of the legacy car manufacturers that most of them will now never be able to catch up and will go the way of the dodo.

I'm amazed how Norway have achieved this, one of the most difficult issues to overcome with batteries was working in low temperatures, it's improved a bit but they were well along this road before that happened. We are talking about a climate where many petrol cars have to have plug in electrical heating to keep the engine warm enough to be started without damage

 

[selectortone]

We are talking about a climate where many petrol cars have to have plug in electrical heating to keep the engine warm enough to be started without damage

Which is why it has been easier for Scandinavian countrues to adapt to EVs - the power cabling infrastructure in public and company car parks and at home was there already for winter engine heating.

 

[NormanB]

I'm amazed how Norway have achieved this, one of the most difficult issues to overcome with batteries was working in low temperatures, it's improved a bit but they were well along this road before that happened. We are talking about a climate where many petrol cars have to have plug in electrical heating to keep the engine warm enough to be started without damage

Are you equally amazed that:
1. It has a population of 5M
2. A sovereign wealth fund of $1.5TN
3. 1% of their electricity is from fossil fuel.
4. Most of their oil and gas production is exported (unlike UK)
4. Battery conditioning takes a few hundreds of watts.

 

[John on the Wirral]

Whatever happened to that guy in the west counrty that had invented ev batteries made from old allumiium beer cans? He presented his ideas on tv some time ago and his batteries were about the size of a pancake, weighed ounces and gave an incredible range. His notion was that you recycled them at Asda by swapping for a fresh one. My freind looked into his operation and found that had bought the Austin name and had financial backers etc. I figured that his batteries were single use and not rechargable but he seems to have disappeared into thin air or been bought out! I am old enough to remember a British guy inventing a four cylinder engine made of plastic where all four cylinders were inside each other and it ran on water. He was last seen boarding a 'plane for the US with his engine in has hand baggage! Never heard of again - bought out by an oil giant?

 

[Jacob]

Whatever happened to that guy in the west counrty that had invented ev batteries made from old allumiium beer cans? He presented his ideas on tv some time ago and his batteries were about the size of a pancake, weighed ounces and gave an incredible range. His notion was that you recycled them at Asda by swapping for a fresh one. My freind looked into his operation and found that had bought the Austin name and had financial backers etc. I figured that his batteries were single use and not rechargable but he seems to have disappeared into thin air or been bought out! I am old enough to remember a British guy inventing a four cylinder engine made of plastic where all four cylinders were inside each other and it ran on water. He was last seen boarding a 'plane for the US with his engine in has hand baggage! Never heard of again - bought out by an oil giant?

I guess both were nutters and their ideas nonsense.
Mind you swapping batteries looks like a good idea; big pile of batteries on charge 24/7, drive in, swap batteries, drive out. Seems to solve a lot of problems. Why is it not on the agenda?

 

[John Brown]

Whatever happened to that guy in the west counrty that had invented ev batteries made from old allumiium beer cans? He presented his ideas on tv some time ago and his batteries were about the size of a pancake, weighed ounces and gave an incredible range. His notion was that you recycled them at Asda by swapping for a fresh one. My freind looked into his operation and found that had bought the Austin name and had financial backers etc. I figured that his batteries were single use and not rechargable but he seems to have disappeared into thin air or been bought out! I am old enough to remember a British guy inventing a four cylinder engine made of plastic where all four cylinders were inside each other and it ran on water. He was last seen boarding a 'plane for the US with his engine in has hand baggage! Never heard of again - bought out by an oil giant?

All four cylinders were inside each other and it ran on water?
Had he been assisting the other guy, by emptying the beer cans, by any chance?

 

[Jacob]

Of course they have. Has been going on for years, continually under review, from Victorian times with concerns about smoke.
Are you suggesting that ULEZ regions might actually be areas of low relative air pollution, for all we know?
Maybe areas outside ULEZ now show higher levels? Could be an argument for extending ULEZ even further?

It might have been how you chose to work but I'm sure that general falsification and fiddling isn't common practice, except in the private sector of course; nicotine, asbestos, alcohol, Fentanyl, the fossil fuel lobby, et al.

Still hard at it Influencers and freebies: Big Tobacco’s push to sell nicotine pouches in UK
Easy to overlook but climate change is caused by unrestrained private enterprise and the remedy can only be via the state. Is this why swapping batteries is not on the agenda? It would need private enterprise to co-operate massively over the design, rather than competing frantically with each other.

 

[selectortone]

it ran on water

I remember stories about cars that ran on water way back in the 1950s and 60s. The story went that the inventors were bought out by the oil companies and their inventions hushed up.

Maybe there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps they were early hydrogen cell designs. The product of hydrogen combustion is water.

There you are - your conspiracy theory of the day.

 

[OldGreyDog]

As a long time diesel car driver, recently swapped to a hybrid, because I could not find a suitable car that I liked with a diesel engine option, I am still opposed to the extension of the ULEZ zone to and beyond the M26.

My main objection is Khan tramping all over areas way outside where people voted for him to raise yet more cash for London.

Its London thats the problem and it boils my pith that everything in this country these days seems to be what London wants, ULEZ, HS2, Crossrail, all for London at the expense of those areas that are ruined to facilitate them.

I only live about twenty miles from the M25 and thirty from London proper and both our family cars are ULES compliant (as was the diesel one I sold on recently) but I don’t like London, or big cities/towns generally, so unless its for a very occasional special occasion arranged for us by family members, I avoidlondon as much as I can.

 

[John Brown]

I remember stories about cars that ran on water way back in the 1950s and 60s. The story went that the inventors were bought out by the oil companies and their inventions hushed up.

Maybe there's a grain of truth in there. Perhaps they were early hydrogen cell designs. The product of hydrogen combustion is water.

There you are - your conspiracy theory of the day.

Except that's the opposite of a fuel cell, so it would be like generating electricity by pushing water uphill.
There have always been stories of great inventions being bought up an silenced, but as a general rule, inventions tend to arise separately at roughly similar times, as there at the leading edge of technology. Take the light bulb, or the steam engine, or powered flight, for example. The chances that someone would invent a car that ran on water, and nobody else would be able to duplicate it are small, IMO.

 

[Jacob]

...

My main objection is Khan tramping all over areas way outside where people voted for him to raise yet more cash for London.

It's not about raising cash it's about saving lives and reducing illness. And is undoubtedly saving massive amounts of cash on the health front.
https://www.london.gov.uk/new-repor...this landmark,air for four million Londoners.There's more support for ULEZ than opposition - it's just that latter are egged on by the media and make more noise. Khan is very likely to get voted in again unless he is deselected by Starmer (Sunak's agent in the Labour party) which is quite likely to happen.
Sunak is feebly backing off on ULEZ and green issues as a whole. Starmer will follow his lead. Rishi Sunak urges Sadiq Khan to 'think twice' on Ulez expansion
This is interesting: What Leuven taught me about ULEZ

 

[rafezetter]

I think in 20 years people will be looking back at the heavy, low range EV and wondering how people ever accepted them when they have access to an EV with 1000km range, that can recharge in minutes, at a fraction of the cost while sitting in the community parking lot.
Take a look back 20 years in terms of fossil fuel vehicles and compare how inefficient and dirty they were compared to the equivalent today. The look back even farther to look at the evolution of fossil fuel vehicles and you can see that there is always a technology curve with technology. EV are at the start of an evolution that has massive potential for improvement. Those adopting EV today are the equivalent of the driving pioneers who set off from their stately home in their noisy inefficient petrol car with little certainty of finding fuel along their route. The main fuel at the time was hay and oats…
Keep in mind the trajectory of battery and EV technology is now being driven by a consumer demand as well as by legislation. People should not judge what is possible in 20 years by what is available today. 20 years ago the main telephone system was wired and the big argument against mobile was a combination of coverage and battery life. Both of those issues are largely non existent today. Sound familiar?

Nonsense.

In 20 years the diesel and petrol engines have hardly changed. Honda introduced the first "Lower Emission" engine in 1975, then another in 1986. 1990 the VTec engines were launched.

The only additions were increasing efficiency from 50+ mpg to close to 100 mpg, and a lot of that was due to the "self stopping" technology when the vehicle was stationary in traffic or lights.

Almost all the innovations in engine technology in the last 20 years have come from LPG, Hybrid or full EV's.

https://csr.honda.com/environment/timeline/
In 20 years we WILL NOT have "community cars" doing 1000km range because battery technology in the last 20 years has had exactly 1 innovation, from Ni-Cad to Lithium which changes the CHEMISTRY but not the SIZE of the battery.

If we had gone from a chunky 12v Ni-Cad to a 36v Lithium that was the size of a box of matches than I might agree with you, but we haven't. The chemistry is limited and always will be.

Samsung had a crack at making smaller Li batteries and look what happened.... umm they exploded.

EV's are still self combusting now.

 

[worn thumbs]

Nonsense.

In 20 years the diesel and petrol engines have hardly changed. Honda introduced the first "Lower Emission" engine in 1975, then another in 1986. 1990 the VTec engines were launched.

The only additions were increasing efficiency from 50+ mpg to close to 100 mpg, and a lot of that was due to the "self stopping" technology when the vehicle was stationary in traffic or lights.

Almost all the innovations in engine technology in the last 20 years have come from LPG, Hybrid or full EV's.

https://csr.honda.com/environment/timeline/
In 20 years we WILL NOT have "community cars" doing 1000km range because battery technology in the last 20 years has had exactly 1 innovation, from Ni-Cad to Lithium which changes the CHEMISTRY but not the SIZE of the battery.

If we had gone from a chunky 12v Ni-Cad to a 36v Lithium that was the size of a box of matches than I might agree with you, but we haven't. The chemistry is limited and always will be.

Samsung had a crack at making smaller Li batteries and look what happened.... umm they exploded.

EV's are still self combusting now.

I agree that engines haven't changed in that they still have pistons,crankshafts and valves.What has changed is the management system that controls them.In the same way that a computer from the early period has the same basic electronic components as one you might buy now.The difference is more precision and better sensors and controls.You can do a great deal more with modern operating systems and hardware than was possible with say Windows XP and something similar pertains to engines.Take a look at the emissions permitted at various times by the various Euro standards Euro emissions standards | AA .Notice any changes?

 

[Jameshow]

Nonsense.

In 20 years the diesel and petrol engines have hardly changed. Honda introduced the first "Lower Emission" engine in 1975, then another in 1986. 1990 the VTec engines were launched.

The only additions were increasing efficiency from 50+ mpg to close to 100 mpg, and a lot of that was due to the "self stopping" technology when the vehicle was stationary in traffic or lights.

Almost all the innovations in engine technology in the last 20 years have come from LPG, Hybrid or full EV's.

https://csr.honda.com/environment/timeline/
In 20 years we WILL NOT have "community cars" doing 1000km range because battery technology in the last 20 years has had exactly 1 innovation, from Ni-Cad to Lithium which changes the CHEMISTRY but not the SIZE of the battery.

If we had gone from a chunky 12v Ni-Cad to a 36v Lithium that was the size of a box of matches than I might agree with you, but we haven't. The chemistry is limited and always will be.

Samsung had a crack at making smaller Li batteries and look what happened.... umm they exploded.

EV's are still self combusting now.

Come on lithium batteries are smaller than the big batteries we pushed up the handle of a nicad drill!!

 

[John Brown]

Nonsense.

In 20 years the diesel and petrol engines have hardly changed. Honda introduced the first "Lower Emission" engine in 1975, then another in 1986. 1990 the VTec engines were launched.

The only additions were increasing efficiency from 50+ mpg to close to 100 mpg, and a lot of that was due to the "self stopping" technology when the vehicle was stationary in traffic or lights.

Almost all the innovations in engine technology in the last 20 years have come from LPG, Hybrid or full EV's.

https://csr.honda.com/environment/timeline/
In 20 years we WILL NOT have "community cars" doing 1000km range because battery technology in the last 20 years has had exactly 1 innovation, from Ni-Cad to Lithium which changes the CHEMISTRY but not the SIZE of the battery.

If we had gone from a chunky 12v Ni-Cad to a 36v Lithium that was the size of a box of matches than I might agree with you, but we haven't. The chemistry is limited and always will be.

Samsung had a crack at making smaller Li batteries and look what happened.... umm they exploded.

EV's are still self combusting now.

Actually Lithium Ion cells have 2 to 3 times the energy density of Nicads, according to Google. NiMH are somewhere in between. So the SIZE did change.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Nonsense.

In 20 years the diesel and petrol engines have hardly changed. Honda introduced the first "Lower Emission" engine in 1975, then another in 1986. 1990 the VTec engines were launched.

The only additions were increasing efficiency from 50+ mpg to close to 100 mpg, and a lot of that was due to the "self stopping" technology when the vehicle was stationary in traffic or lights.

Almost all the innovations in engine technology in the last 20 years have come from LPG, Hybrid or full EV's.

https://csr.honda.com/environment/timeline/
In 20 years we WILL NOT have "community cars" doing 1000km range because battery technology in the last 20 years has had exactly 1 innovation, from Ni-Cad to Lithium which changes the CHEMISTRY but not the SIZE of the battery.

If we had gone from a chunky 12v Ni-Cad to a 36v Lithium that was the size of a box of matches than I might agree with you, but we haven't. The chemistry is limited and always will be.

Samsung had a crack at making smaller Li batteries and look what happened.... umm they exploded.

EV's are still self combusting now.

So a doubling in efficiency is not a note worthy change in 20 years? Certainly the change in emissions in that same time has been very marked. If EV double the range or halve the weight in the next 20 years that’s a pretty significant improvement towards making them very viable and incidentally a 1000Km range becomes viable.
The point is there is now an incentive to solve the battery density problem and a lot of people are now investing in research as there is money to be made.

 

[Jacob]

I agree that engines haven't changed in that they still have pistons,crankshafts and valves.What has changed is the management system that controls them.In the same way that a computer from the early period has the same basic electronic components as one you might buy now.The difference is more precision and better sensors and controls.You can do a great deal more with modern operating systems and hardware than was possible with say Windows XP and something similar pertains to engines.Take a look at the emissions permitted at various times by the various Euro standards Euro emissions standards | AA .Notice any changes?

Interesting.
Carbon Dioxide does not get mentioned. That's because CO2 and climate change is an entirely separate issue, ULEZ is about Carbon Monoxide and other pollutants harmful to health.
These get conflated - CO2 isn't toxic even in the raised amounts contributing to climate change