The great 'Double Glazing Con'

[MIGNAL]

Linseed is a drying Oil, which will tend to flex with the movement of the timber. Add too much resin and the 'varnish' will become brittle. I've no idea what was in some of the old paints but Lead is (or was) added to varnishes/Linseed oil to act as a drier. They may have added resin to give greater gloss, Lead as the drier and then the pigment, which was probably a lot of earth pigments before the synthetics came about. Too much lead can have consequences for the finished film, at least when put into varnishes.
The Linseed Paint is probably much purer. At a guess highly polymerised Linseed Oil and earth pigments. Doesn't get much simpler. Probably very similar to artist Oil paints but much thinner.
It may be the case that modern paints are relying on cold solve modern resins, which is obviously cheaper than heating Oil and mixing in seriously hot resins. I'm guessing though and a lot of it is based on my varnish knowledge.

 

[Jacob]

Linseed is a drying Oil,

No it isn't. It hardens by oxidation, there are no VOCs.

.....
The Linseed Paint is probably much purer. At a guess highly polymerised Linseed Oil and earth pigments.

"Boiled cold pressed" (it says on this tin). This particular shade of dull red has iron oxide pigment and chalk filler.
I can dig out some ancient recipes for decorators paint if anybody is interested. I've a book somewhere.

 

[Jacob]

The market was a lot smaller and the forests more extensive - the rubbish probably didn't even hit the market.

Dunno I think people used anything and everything - and selected it too, wherever they could. They also re-used stuff - old buildings are full of second hand timber with empty mortices in odd places.
I imagine the trans atlantic trade would be for better stuff but the Baltic isn't that far. U/S was graded 1st to 3rds and also identified by source - area or port: "Archangel", "Kara Sea" better quality being further north than "Baltic" etc.

 

[bugbear]

ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead.
It is durable without lead.
From this it seems reasonable to infer that it's the linseed oil not the lead which made old linseed oil paint durable.
Proving it is another issue, but as nobody will use lead anyway, proving that lead paint is durable is fairly pointless.

Ah, I see.

So no one's actually compared the durability with and without lead, it's just your inference.

We're a LONG way from "There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned."

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

ALL the info about modern linseed oil pain durability is about paint without lead.
It is durable without lead.
From this it seems reasonable to infer that it's the linseed oil not the lead which made old linseed oil paint durable.
Proving it is another issue, but as nobody will use lead anyway, proving that lead paint is durable is fairly pointless.

Ah, I see.

So no one's actually compared the durability with and without lead, it's just your inference.

We're a LONG way from "There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned."

BugBear

He's on his little hobby horse again! :lol: :lol:
It's been discovered that the paint WITHOUT lead is durable. This suggests that lead does not contribute so much to durability as has been assumed but yes this is an inference. It'd take 50 years or so to prove but as we don't use lead any more who cares?

 

[MIGNAL]

Linseed is a drying Oil,

No it isn't. It hardens by oxidation, there are no VOCs.

.....
The Linseed Paint is probably much purer. At a guess highly polymerised Linseed Oil and earth pigments.

"Boiled cold pressed" (it says on this tin). This particular shade of dull red has iron oxide pigment and chalk filler.
I can dig out some ancient recipes for decorators paint if anybody is interested. I've a book somewhere.

Linseed is classed as a drying oil. . . because it dries by oxidation. Olive oil is classed as a non drying oil because it doesn't dry by oxidation. Those are the two basic classes that oil falls into. Technically I think there is a third (semi drying) but it's easier to just use the two classes.
'Boiled cold pressed' could mean anything, although the 'cold pressed' part is probably right. That would make for a high quality form of linseed and will add significantly to the price.
Boiled could quite literally indicate that it has been heated to a high temperature, which would mean that it's been polymerised. Polymerised oils tend to dry faster and a little harder. Unfortunately they also used the term 'boiled' for Linseed Oil that hasn't been heated, although it will have a drier (not lead) added to it. This is the cheap stuff that is found in your local DIY. Raw Linseed is just that. Sun thickened Oil is exposed to sun light (over time) which leads to oxidation without forming a film. It;s thicker than boiled or raw Linseed. Stand Oil is Linseed that is heated without the prescence of oxygen.
I'm afraid I've read too many Books on Violin varnish, they have a daily diet of this kind of information ( times by a factor of one million).

 

[Lons]

I'm about 7 years into linseed oil paints and the difference is astonishing. I wish I had known about it sooner.

Just for info; if anyone buys a new Audi today (or several other car manufacturers) they are painted with water based paint.

Yep have done for a number of years now. I believe they did it to comply with environmental issues during manufacture. My last 2 BMWs and Audi A6 were water based and my new Audi the same. I'm sure the paint is thinner than it used to be!

 

[bugbear]

Ah, I see.

So no one's actually compared the durability with and without lead, it's just your inference.

We're a LONG way from "There was an assumption that lead gave old paint it's longevity but this notion has been overturned."

BugBear

He's on his little hobby horse again! :lol: :lol:
It's been discovered that the paint WITHOUT lead is durable. This suggests that lead does not contribute so much to durability as has been assumed but yes this is an inference. It'd take 50 years or so to prove but as we don't use lead any more who cares?

I care about the truth. Other approaches are to discussion are available, sadly,

Do you, in fact have any actual data you can point to as to the durability of the paint, and the protection given to the underlying wood, for either lead or non-lead pigments?

EDIT; whilst looking at this, I discovered that the Art world is greatly exercised by white lead being nearly banned and nearly unobtainable.
Here's an interesting link on that POV.

http://paintingperceptions.com/sounding ... e-shortage

BugBear

 

[MIGNAL]

Lead was used as a drier. It's been known as such since Roman times. These days they use other substances such as manganese. Oil paints/varnishes are extremely slow drying if they aren't subject to intense UV. Slow drying means lots of crud and dust sticking to the finished film. Lead was used to accelerate the drying of oil based paints and varnishes. It probably also had other consequences for the pigments. I do know that if too much lead was added the varnish would eventually crack badly.

 

[Jacob]

Lead was used as a drier. It's been known as such since Roman times. These days they use other substances such as manganese. Oil paints/varnishes are extremely slow drying if they aren't subject to intense UV. Slow drying means lots of crud and dust sticking to the finished film. Lead was used to accelerate the drying of oil based paints and varnishes. It probably also had other consequences for the pigments. I do know that if too much lead was added the varnish would eventually crack badly.

Yes - lead compounds used for pigments too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead

 

[heimlaga]

I think the Great Double Glazing Con is all about the businessmen who have convinced the British people that double glazing must be a sealed package fitted into a modern sash. The result being that perfectly sound old windows are shifted out for no reason.

Up here in Finland and Sweden we normally use double sash windows. The inner sash is always made tighter than the outer to allow for some degree of ventilation. I am fairly sure that any old reasonably well made and sound British style window could be converted into a fairly energy efficient double sash windov just by adding a hinged inner sash with a simple glass pane. An extremely simple and cheap sulution that would save homeowners a lot of hard earned money and provide job for local joinery workshops.
In my oppinion such clever local solutions would do a lot to get Europe out of this debth spiral.....but of cause International Big Business wouldn't lite it.

Old windows were generally made from much better wood than new ones. Slow grown Scandinavian pine heartwood is the appropriate material and nowadays that kind of wood usually ends up as pulp or concrete molds. Theese days very little such wood is produced because the forests are thinned heavily to promote rapid volume growth. All because the big pulp mills and saw mills want it that way.
Therefore we get fast grown knotty tiomber that doesn't last. It is still possible to get proper sash materials but then you have to either be very lucky and get a batch by chance or be able to bypass the ordinary delivery chain and pick your logs in the forest or at the sawmill.

 

[Jacob]

I think the Great Double Glazing Con is all about the businessmen who have convinced the British people that double glazing must be a sealed package fitted into a modern sash. The result being that perfectly sound old windows are shifted out for no reason.

Up here in Finland and Sweden we normally use double sash windows. The inner sash is always made tighter than the outer to allow for some degree of ventilation. I am fairly sure that any old reasonably well made and sound British style window could be converted into a fairly energy efficient double sash windov just by adding a hinged inner sash with a simple glass pane. An extremely simple and cheap sulution that would save homeowners a lot of hard earned money and provide job for local joinery workshops.
In my oppinion such clever local solutions would do a lot to get Europe out of this debth spiral.....but of cause International Big Business wouldn't lite it.

Old windows were generally made from much better wood than new ones. Slow grown Scandinavian pine heartwood is the appropriate material and nowadays that kind of wood usually ends up as pulp or concrete molds. Theese days very little such wood is produced because the forests are thinned heavily to promote rapid volume growth. All because the big pulp mills and saw mills want it that way.
Therefore we get fast grown knotty tiomber that doesn't last. It is still possible to get proper sash materials but then you have to either be very lucky and get a batch by chance or be able to bypass the ordinary delivery chain and pick your logs in the forest or at the sawmill.

Instead of double sashes, internal or external shutters used to be more common in the UK. Internal shutters, well fitted, made of timber, would surely provide much more insulation than DG but they are completely out of fashion.
But yes to double sashes - or sash outside and casement inside - a good idea and a lot cheaper than DG total replacement. I've suggested these on several jobs but never had a bite.
We get good Swedish timber here - maybe they export the best stuff? Reminds me of our Australian visitors recently who were jealous of the Oz wines we get here - better than they can get at home.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Reminds me of our Australian visitors recently who were jealous of the Oz wines we get here

Would that be the Aussie reds that have so much sunshine from the grapes they reach out of the bottle and punch you in the face! I wish they would take the ones we have here back home where they belong. Give me almost any cheap French red over an Ocker any day of the week. Sunburnt rubbish.

Drinking Aussie reds always reminds me of the Monty Python sketch, they got it spot on IMO.

 

[Jacob]

Apparently it often does really well in blind tasting tests even with french experts. Certainly passes my own blind drunk tests and that's good enough for me.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Nothing wrong with Australian. Or New Zealand, Chilean, Argentine, South African, Spanish, Italian ... with the exception of the very best of French, they're all better value in my book. As one well known Australian chef said - there's nothing at all wrong with French wine. I cook with it all the time.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I agree for all those you mention (especially New Zealand whites) with the exception of Aussie reds...just waaay too in your face. Cocky git of an Ozzy to say he cooks with the French wines

 

[RobinBHM]

To go back to the OP's question about double glazing being a con.......

Part L of the building regs, conservation of fuel and power, is all part of the governments goal to help reach the UK's target for reducing the carbon footprint (pointless while China and India are belching out smoke!)

The problem is that the UK has loads of housing stock that is old and is not energy efficient. The reality is that it is prohibitively expensive to make very significant improvements in energy efficiency to an old house as each part of the building envelope would need upgrading to achieve a real incremental gain. It would be hard to justify double glazing in pay back period terms. For most people, loft insulation and sealing draughts achieve the greatest gains, after that the capital costs ramp up against diminishing returns. No doubt energy costs will keep increasing to encourage householders to pay out for energy improvements.

Glazing is the part of a house which has the lowest heat insulation value, single glazing has a u value of about 4.5 and double about 1.2 (1.6 for whole frame value), whilst a wall would be 0.25 and a flat roof 0.18 (for part L 2010). For a new house double glazing is very much worthwhile.

Windows of course now have energy ratings, so you can choose a window like you might choose a fridge freezer. These ratings are based on a mixture of u value and g which is solar gain. To go from a C rating to an A rating generally requires low iron glass which is clearer; Why? it allows more sunlight in to a house and therefore increases the 'g' value. There's one small flaw in this, the heat gained to the house while the sun is out, is all dissipated when people get home form work and want a warm house after the sun has gone down!

What I say is turn the heating down and compensate by drinking more wine!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Cloudy Bay is over rated, there are up and coming ones that are better. I gave a glass of an NZ sweet to a a very well trained French sommelier who insisted it was Grand Cru Sauternes, this was about 14yrs ago - he didn't believe that anywhere other than France could have made it. No wonder their wine industry got in the doldrums. There was a blind tasting done a while ago in the Telegraph, where the NZ reds (Gimbletts Gravels) came out well against the French. Oz reds are OK if you keep to some of the lighter ones - Coonawaras will dissolve your throat without food. A good Margaret River, now ...

Sorry, OP, for the hijack ...

 

[Jacob]

I've found that "serious" wine (and whisky) tasters can become quite befuddled if they can't see the label or a price tag.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, the IWC have just given 498 medals to supermarket wines, I've just seen in The Times.