THE FOURTH OF JULY

[Jake]

And they call it democratic !

How can a system be democratic and represent the population if someone wins a seat for 18,000 votes yet the other gets 17,500 . Then what about the other 30,000 who did not vote and you soon get someone winning that the majority did not really want.

Now all the RWs are crying about proportional representation. We settled that debate in 2011 by having a referendum which is binding for eternity.

 

[Jake]

Interesting to note that Corbyn polled more votes than Starmer in their respective elections.

That's just a replication of his past history of electoral appeal - big in committed left wing urban area safe seats. Unelectable elsewhere. A simple comparison between 2017 and 2019 and 2024 shows that Corbyn is best at delivering more Tory government.

 

[mark w]

Nonsense. Starmer has swung the whole agenda to the right and in no way "fought" against Reform or Farage.

Starmer also lied repeatedly to win the leadership, and conducted a dishonest and divisive campaign against the left.
Pleased that Corbyn and Abbott held on to their seats, and that Ashworth lost his.
The "Gaza" winners are good news too - as another focus of opposition against our new estabishmentarian and very conservative "Labour" government.

I'm hoping Starmer was just playing the game, saying what some wanted to hear in order to get elected. Lets see what he does

 

[Rhossydd]

I think he would have made a good PM,

I doubt it. Whilst there were some good policies he tried to promote, he completely failed to look sufficiently statesman like that's needed for the task.
His performances at PMQs were pretty dismal and he failed to be engaging on TV. Whilst that might seem unimportant, IT IS IMPORTANT, and he failed.

 

[mark w]

That's just a replication of his past history of electoral appeal - big in committed left wing urban area safe seats. Unelectable elsewhere. A simple comparison between 2017 and 2019 and 2024 shows that Corbyn is best at delivering more Tory government.

I live in what was a Tory stronghold so his appeal was more far reaching than you seem to think. My point still stands, he poled more votes than Starmer.

 

[Jake]

My point still stands, he poled more votes than Starmer.

What good is that. Compare then to now and who can deliver what. Decent left wing government or more RW Tory descent.

Take your pick. That's the way the UK has always worked so far, and Corbyn's latest attempts to break that mould failed even worse than before.

 

[mark w]

I doubt it. Whilst there were some good policies he tried to promote, he completely failed to look sufficiently statesman like that's needed for the task.
His performances at PMQs were pretty dismal and he failed to be engaging on TV. Whilst that might seem unimportant, IT IS IMPORTANT, and he failed.

I think he did rather well, particularly when when you take into account that everyone who interviewed him was totally against him, particularly the BBC pundits. Do you think he would have been worse than Johnson? Do you think he would have left in disgrace?

 

[Jacob]

Funny how the obsessive anti Corbynistas are still going on about him! I guess they are trying to accommodate that he polled more than Starmer in 2017, 2019, is still more popular than Starmer and 80% of Labour members, even now after the purges, think he should be allowed back into the party.
More seriously I guess Starmer hopes we will all forget his foul and dishonest campaign of false allegations of anti semitism against the left, the attempt to stifle the in-house leaked report and the Forde Inquiry report, his bullying of Diane Abbott and others, the seats he actually lost by parachuting in his own men, the attacks on party democracy, the lost Labour membership and funding, his protective attitude towards the Israeli apartheid regime and their campaign of genocide...etc etc

 

[woodieallen]

Funny how the obsessive anti Corbynistas are still going on about him! I guess they are trying to accommodate that he polled more than Starmer in 2017, 2019, is still more popular than Starmer and 80% of Labour members, even now after the purges, think he should be allowed back into the party.

Can you back any of that up with any statistics or references ? Nope. Thought not.

 

[Yojevol]

Pleased that Corbyn and Abbott held on to their seats, and that Ashworth lost his.
The "Gaza" winners are good news too - as another focus of opposition against our new estabishmentarian and very conservative "Labour" government.

In those two sentences, Jacob, you have revealed your basic philosophy of politics, ie, when a new government is elected, they become the 'new establishment' and, as such, you're naturally hostile to it. So, just like JC, you'd rather be in permanent opposition and not achieving anything as against being in power and contributing, even if it is only vaguely in your desired direction of travel.
Brian

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We settled that debate in 2011 by having a referendum which is binding for eternity.

The referendum was FPTP or A.V. not any other form of P.R.

 

[woodieallen]

Funny how the obsessive anti Corbynistas are still going on about him! I guess they are trying to accommodate that he polled more than Starmer in 2017, 2019, is still more popular than Starmer and 80% of Labour members, even now after the purges, think he should be allowed back into the party.
More seriously I guess Starmer hopes we will all forget his foul and dishonest campaign of false allegations of anti semitism against the left, the attempt to stifle the in-house leaked report and the Forde Inquiry report, his bullying of Diane Abbott and others, the seats he actually lost by parachuting in his own men, the attacks on party democracy, the lost Labour membership and funding, his protective attitude towards the Israeli apartheid regime and their campaign of genocide...etc etc

That post reminds me of the Monty Python sketch "What did the Romans ever do for us?". Only Starmer actually won an election and achieved something.

 

[mark w]

What good is that. Compare then to now and who can deliver what. Decent left wing government or more RW Tory descent.

Take your pick. That's the way the UK has always worked so far, and Corbyn's latest attempts to break that mould failed even worse than before.

"Compare then to now", ok, if Starmer had been up against Boris Get Brexit Done, he would have lost, that election was all about getting us out of the EU. Starmer also gained from the rise of Reform and the loss of Tory votes to them, the Lib Dems also played their part this time, openly saying they would not go into coalition with the Tories which encouraged Labour supporters like myself to vote tactically. My point still stands, more people voted for Corbyn than Starmer, this is really significant when you take into account Corbyn was under attack all the time from the right wing media with no help from from the supposedly neutral BBC who let Boris get away with outright lies, I can't think of one television reporter or interviewer who ever gave him a fair interview.

 

[Jacob]

Can you back any of that up with any statistics or references ? ....

Yes of course I can. It is all widely reported, you could find out yourself if you could be bothered to check anything. Ignorance is no excuse!

 

[Rhossydd]

Do you think he would have been worse than Johnson? Do you think he would have left in disgrace?

The point was he was effectively unelectable. A well meaning man in the wrong position.
The tragedy was that Labour had loads of more electable people, but the membership failed to promote them.

 

[mark w]

The point was he was effectively unelectable. A well meaning man in the wrong position.
The tragedy was that Labour had loads of more electable people, but the membership failed to promote them.

"The membership failed to promote them" the membership grew exponentially because of Corbyn. No matter who was leading Labour at the time Boris was running they would have lost.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

All true I think, but my point was more about the general contribution he made to down-grading our politics and the rise of populism. is

I agree - I think he perfected the art. Sadly all politicians of all persuasions routinely adopt the common principles - partial truths, selective date, exaggeration, evasion etc.

Why the rise of populism is usually attributed only to the far right defeats me.

Does it mean that popular far left ideas (eg: soak the rich till the pops squeak, nationalise all that moves, ban private education and healthcare etc) are not populism.

Or are they somehow worthy where other social and political views are somehow abhorrent. Does populism, despite its obvious root in the word popular, mean tyrannical.

I'm confused.

 

[John Brown]

I agree - I think he perfected the art. Sadly all politicians of all persuasions routinely adopt the common principles - partial truths, selective date, exaggeration, evasion etc.

Why the rise of populism is usually attributed only to the far right defeats me.

Does it mean that popular far left ideas (eg: soak the rich till the pops squeak, nationalise all that moves, ban private education and healthcare etc) are not populism.

Or are they somehow worthy where other social and political views are somehow abhorrent. Does populism, despite its obvious root in the word popular, mean tyrannical.

I'm confused.

H.L.Mencken defined democracy as "the people know what they want, and deserve to get it, good and hard"
I don't think it matters too much which side you think you're on.

 

[Spectric]

Well it looks like they have sorted out the overcrowded prison system, taking the conservative idea of early release and now looking to let out even more which seems a bit ironic considering Starmers past was about justice. I would have thought fixing the police would have taken higher priority in order to make the streets safer rather than doing the opposite.

Starmer also gained from the rise of Reform and the loss of Tory votes to them

As has been said Starmer did not win on merit or policy but by default, people blamed the conservatives for everything whilst forgetting that we went through Covid and an energy crisis and Starmer was promising to fix everything. I think without reform then labour would still have won but with a smaller majority of seats as it seems the conservative voters failed to vote or turned to lib dem / reform.

 

[Rhossydd]

Well it looks like they have sorted out the overcrowded prison system, taking the conservative idea of early release and now looking to let out even more which seems a bit ironic considering Starmers past was about justice. I would have thought fixing the police would have taken higher priority in order to make the streets safer rather than doing the opposite.

So how long do you think it will take to "fix the police" enough to make a difference ?
If you listened to the press conference, the question was about releasing people that shouldn't be in jail to ease the chronic overcrowding which eventually creates space to lock up the real dangers to people, rather than locking up climate protestors who won't hurt anybody.