Rhossydd
Established Member
You've made some sensible posts in this thread, but the idea that a vote for reform sends a message about fiscal responsibility, honesty or clarity is ludicrous.
THE FOURTH OF JULY
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Sorry Terry, but I got confused.
You say:
However, on the link that you shared IFS says (on the fourth paragraph of the topic "Other parties available"):
"Reform UK and the Greens offer much bigger numbers still. The policies they outline are not going to be implemented. But the way they suggest that they have radical ideas which can realistically make a positive difference, when in fact what they propose is wholly unattainable, helps to poison the entire political debate."
Just to clarify, was your comment sarcastic? If not, I am afraid I didn't understand it.
Cheers,
Bruno
You say:
However, on the link that you shared IFS says (on the fourth paragraph of the topic "Other parties available"):
"Reform UK and the Greens offer much bigger numbers still. The policies they outline are not going to be implemented. But the way they suggest that they have radical ideas which can realistically make a positive difference, when in fact what they propose is wholly unattainable, helps to poison the entire political debate."
Just to clarify, was your comment sarcastic? If not, I am afraid I didn't understand it.
Cheers,
Bruno
RobinBHM
Established Member
The general public have voted for “tax cuts” for decades
They don’t vote for tax and spend, as 2017 and 2019 show
Labour are having to play the game to win.
Conservatives are claiming tax cuts, but have put policies in place that increase taxes by £80b between 2019 and 2030…..and recently they’ve cut NI which reduces their planned tax increase from £80b to £60b
Labour would inherit those Tory tax rises as well
Would a campaign strategy like: “under Conservatives / Labour your taxes will go up and your public services won’t get better, vote for us” be a winner?
But that can be easily dismissed because if it was true then we would at least see some signs that it has started to happen but so far nothing. Starmer is putting himself forward as the magician who will fix everything which is really being deceitful and misleading the public because no one can fix our problems just like that and it might take years if it is even possible as we are part of a global system where the competition is very strong and once down it is much harder to get up again.
Never really understood them at all, infact they are more like the entertainment wing of politics rather than a serious party.
I think the IFS being more financially astute can see right through the manifestos and see the flaws, if we had no huge national debt and a stable economy then they would be more feasable but ignoring all the major issues then the manifesto is probably a waste of paper because everything comes down to money and the question of how to raise funds without adding to the national debt. Neither Labour or Conservatives are addressing this issue and both say they are not increasing taxes or cutting spending so things do not add up especially with what Labour are hoping to do.
Maybe it is time for honesty, just tell it as it is and say that if you want things to get better then someone has to pay, the problem has always been that the tax burden ends up on those who can least afford it rather than pushing it up the ladder to those earning more than say 15K a week .
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
I have no intention of supporting Reform - their "contract" is economically and financially illiterate, and their policies (taken as a whole) divisive and unpleasant.
What they do explicitly communicate is the need for radical change, as do the Greens. A stark contrast to the established parties who seem to believe material improvements can flow from utterly trivial changes.
I can fully understand why folk are leaving the Tory camp in droves - I have some sympathy with their opinions. But the proposition that Labour can transform (CHANGE) is a complete illusion. Either little will change, they will fund change with more debt, or put up taxes.
The honesty and integrity deficit leaves them with no more credibility than the rest.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
Sarcasm rules - no intention of voting Reform or Green. LibDem is looking like the best of a bad bunch.
Terry - Somerset
Established Member
I agree that if integrity and honesty ruled, and clear tax and funding plans accompanied the vision of a better UK, Labour would struggle to get elected. As would any party - it is only the magic money tree and voter credulity that allows aspirations and money to be balanced.
So I wonder what the attraction of Labour is. Their main USP is they are not Tories, and the manifesto a comforting fiction. Sort of understandable.
Purely a personal view - I would like my elected representatives to be honest, explicit and complete in their aspirations. A vote for a party evidently which puts electoral success above these qualities is no more worthy of trust than any other.
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
I know it's rather low-brow to talk about Reform being a bit thick, but I was amused yesterday when I spotted a number of small billboards/signs installed by various parties in my local area. All had installed signs on wooden sticks on (recently mown) grass verges by the side of the roads. All had put signs on reasonably tall sticks so they are clearly visible.
Except for all the Reform signs... which had been installed pretty much touching the ground, and were already starting to be obscured by the rapidly growing grass (and will likely be invisible come election day).
On top of that, the bottom of each Reform sign contained the slogan "The Brexit Party". Now, you would think that it wouldn't be smart to remind people of Farage's previous grift vehicle (you know, the one where they fleeced morons £100 each to possibly become candidates - https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/05/...then guided instantly,£100 non-refundable fee.). But for the demographic that support them, I strongly suspect it won't be harmful.
Except for all the Reform signs... which had been installed pretty much touching the ground, and were already starting to be obscured by the rapidly growing grass (and will likely be invisible come election day).
On top of that, the bottom of each Reform sign contained the slogan "The Brexit Party". Now, you would think that it wouldn't be smart to remind people of Farage's previous grift vehicle (you know, the one where they fleeced morons £100 each to possibly become candidates - https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/05/...then guided instantly,£100 non-refundable fee.). But for the demographic that support them, I strongly suspect it won't be harmful.
Yeah but higher rate tax kicks in way lower than that. These extreme examples are always used to justify higher taxation but it applies to a fraction of a percent of people and pretty much all of them use tax avoidance. That is the first thing that needs to be removed. The problem with really high taxation is that it encourages people to find ways to avoid it, including leaving the country.
I don't think it is an attraction but more desperation, jumping out of the pan into the fire without thinking because people are so desperate for the cost of living to become much more affordable and they are pining their hopes on a lame donkey.
I would suggest that in the situation that the UK is now in and falling further into the mire that it will need some very difficult decisions to be made that will be hard for some to accept but unless they are made then the downward spiral is going to continue until we are bankrupt as a country.
We need to put a hold on zero carbon policies until we are in better shape, in theory they are needed but in the grand scheme of things it will make little difference overall to the planet so the investments are better used elsewhere and people are not in any position to buy heat pumps and EV's .
It does seem people want change but are not willing to accept it might need some tough policies and so we just continue the everlasting game of ping pong and getting no where so we will be back in the same position with even higher national debt in 2029.
Yes I would say that to have a fair tax system you cannot have any tax avoidance, make tax avoidance the same as tax evasion. This is something the conservatives cannot do because it would upset to many of there backers and freinds, Starmer is in the same boat now he has conservative identity and walks amongst the rich looking down on the unions who created the party in the first place and it does raise the question of who has the motivation to go after those avoiding tax and get HMRC in a position to collect all taxes owed.
Rhossydd
Established Member
I don't think Labour are saying they offer transformative change at all. The change they're offering is stability and honesty.
After the last 10 years that would be a welcome change. Keeping ministers in post long enough to be able to master their brief and move their policies forward would be a great start, rather than the merry-go-round of incompetence that's been the hallmark of the tories (read 'Politics on the edge' by Rory Stewart to understand the full horror of that).
Frankly if they say they need to put up taxes and increase borrowing to fix things, bring it on. I'd rather pay more tax and be able to get a GP appointment the same week (or any of the other things the tories have broken).
Reform's wish to put a hold on zero carbon on one hand, and wanting to stop immigration on the other, is a delightful collision of ideas. 20 or 30 years from now the whole world order will collapse if the likes of the UK (which til recently had some influence on the matter) don't get manmade global warming under control, and Little England's borders will mean nothing.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
They did in 2017 and total turnout in 2019 wasn't all that low either, but low in seats. The electorate aren't all stupid.
They aren't playing any sort of intelligent game at all, just hoping to win by default and missing an amazing open goal opportunity. And still no more popular than Labour was in 2017!
Not sure what that is supposed to mean. That your taxes will go up, especially at the top end and all the other options on taxing wealth, and as a result your public services will improve, makes perfect sense but needs a confident and articulate leader to spread the message. Starmer is neither. Corbyn was a good communicator.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
"In a withering assessment of the party manifestos, the IFS said the leading parties had “singularly failed even to acknowledge some of the most important issues and choices to have faced us for a very long time”.
This leaves a huge empty space at the centre of our politics, which gives a huge opportunity for Farage et al to keep churning out garbage. They seem to be the only ones (except the greens) confronting issues, even if they are wrong about everything.
This leaves a huge empty space at the centre of our politics, which gives a huge opportunity for Farage et al to keep churning out garbage. They seem to be the only ones (except the greens) confronting issues, even if they are wrong about everything.
RobinBHM
Established Member
The IFS said the Greens and Reform manifestos were complete fantasy
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Something for Starmer to get his teeth into. He seems a bit short on policies. https://www.theguardian.com/profile/guy-shrubsole
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Irrelevant - the big failure is Starmer's. He's supposed to be leading the opposition.
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