THE FOURTH OF JULY

[RobinBHM]

I would suggest that the failure to technically & practically train has helped precipitate industrial decline. When I was teaching many years ago the Thatcher led government encouraged the removal of woodworking & metalworking classrooms.......later Blair encouraged meaningless degrees...although they tried to broaden tertiary education ...but missed out technical education....
Other countries...Germany...have recognised the value of a practically focused education...& prospered.... When will we learn to teach properly......

After reunification Germany put huge efforts into blue collar skills and making engineering to be a prestige career.

The result is they became a world leader in manufacturing.

Blair effectively commodified higher education and turned everything into a degree.

We need massive investment in vocational education

 

[stuart little]

It's a good job that not everyone takes that attitude otherwise we would have a dictatorship and change would be decided on the battlefield.

I thought we already had 'dicktatership'! (intended mis-spell)

 

[stuart little]

Where has our gold reserve gone - ask Brown & Blair?

 

[John Brown]

Where has our gold reserve gone - ask Brown & Blair?

What relevance does that have, and how would things be different today if Brown (no relation) hadn't sold off the gold reserves?

 

[RobinBHM]

Where has our gold reserve gone - ask Brown & Blair?

It was the correct decision badly executed.

Personally I think gold was a very insignificant part of govt assets


Unlike: water, gas, electricity, rail, Royal Mail, probation service, prisons (some), schools etc etc etc.

I’m not ideologically tied to state owned or private, but Insee zero benefits in our key infrastructure being owned by sovereign investment funds for the sole purpose of extracting as much money for benefit of shareholders

 

[John Brown]

My adage is that there is no situation that a politician (of any colour) cannot make worse.

Look at most of our issues - NHS, dentistry, housing, debt - all have been made worse by the actions of politicians.

You cannot repeal the laws of physics or unintended consequences.

It looks like the next lot are about to trash the education system.

How so? What are their plans for the education system?

 

[Jacob]

The beliefs / policies of Labour and Conservative are quite different.

I think it is a shame that this trope of “Labour is just aa version of Conservatism”. I believe it comes mostly from Corbyn roots.

All Corbyn's fault! That's an original idea Robin I've never heard you say anything like that before!
NB the reason people can't see the difference is firstly that the policies seem similar, amounting to vague promises all round, but more that the party is being purged of lefties for the first time in its history. In other words its a very different party and "Labour" in name only.

 

[sploo]

If you want to break the cycle of the two party game of tennis then vote for Reform, they have some real common sense such as why should only a percentage of people pay income tax whilst those with the money use avoidance schemes.

I truly despair when I read comments like that. Even a brief look into the likes of Richard Tice should have any decent person running for the hills. Like Farage, he's one of those grifters that is literally the opposite of everything he claims to be.

The terrible standards of journalism in recent years has allowed people like him to spout unchecked nonsense; but the moment they're actually challenged with any sensible questions it all falls apart. An excellent example would be a recent interview where he (as an ardent Brexiter) he was using the "send the boats back to France" argument (see my comment about the Venn diagram being a circle from earlier in this thread). He did not take kindly to having the reality of his own position pointed out to him.

 

[Spectric]

encouraged the removal of woodworking & metalworking classrooms

How much of that was H&S, I used to really enjoy the break from academic studies in the metalwork shop.

Since the Rwanda scheme won't work anyway, why is a credible alternative needed?

If you have a glass of fresh drinking water and add a few grains of salt it will still be drinkable but add spoonfuls and it becomes un-drinkable.

Without a secure border you have no national security and without border controls you end up with a population that has no useful purpose and just cost you money to keep, much like if farmers reared cattle that they just fed and kept.

 

[John Brown]

If you want to break the cycle of the two party game of tennis then vote for Reform, they have some real common sense such as why should only a percentage of people pay income tax whilst those with the money use avoidance schemes. Make avoidance the same as evasion so we all pay income tax and we all pay less but more goes into the pot to support our essential services. In this next polical farce the conservatives cannot lose, you either get the current flavour of conservatism or another version from labour.

Reform! Anti vaxxer, pro Brexit anti foreigners. Lee Anderson, "Nigel" and Jacob Rees Mogg's sister, Richard Tice...
What do you get if you cross Lee Anderson with Richard Tice?

 

[evildrome]

We have a labour shortage.
This impacts on productivity on whichever area you care to look at.
This in turn disadvantages others with lack of necessary goods/services, which in turn can create unemployment.
Hence migration worldwide, has historically enriched both the migrants AND their hosts, not least because migrants tend to go where the work is (obviously) and if the work gets done others get the benefit and it creates more employment opportunities.
We have a labour shortage - we need them.
Even without a labour shortage immigration tends to increase production, especially as they tend to be young, fit and highly motivated.

This is a short term, expediency driven view, and unsustainable as a long term strategy. The young, motivated and fit ultimately grow older and need the services which they originally provided.

Since 1997 (covering Tory and Labour govts) net immigration has been ~250k pa - total ~6.5m over 26 years. Over the same period total UK population has grown by 9.7m from 58.2m to 67.9m.

• housing completions have averaged ~200k pa fairly consistently. This is broadly adequate to meet increased population but takes no account of changing needs - family breakdowns, demographic changes.
• only an increasing real supply of housing will reduce prices and rents
• similar stresses in all public service provision - healthcare, education, fire services, energy consumption, water resources etc etc
• the UK is already more densely populated than other major European nations - Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Poland.
• net immigration has been a feature of the last 30 years and there is no reason why the trend should reverse. It is entirely structural.

One option is to accept the status quo. Future planning should very explicitly make provision for this population increase. At present it does not. We also need to accept the indefinite price paid in terms of the environment, congestion, social impacts. IMHO this is not desirable.

It is similar to an individual continually spending more than they earn, covering the difference with more borrowing. This may work for many years. Ultimately there will be a reckoning - it is unsustainable. Expediency = bury head in sand and hope the problem goes away.

The alternative is planning to balance the workforce with the demands upon it through:

• training and education for those not optimising their contribution to society
• automation of services - AI, robotics etc
• improving productivity - stop that which is no longer needed (however painful)
• revising working expectations - retire later, more part time

Lip service is paid to this by both parties - it needs focus, money and resolve to make change happen. I don't see immigration as other than a short term stop gap whilst as a society we properly balance the provision of services with labour available.

Importing more workers because yours are getting older just

A) kicks the can down the road

B) makes the eventual problem bigger

C) suppresses wages

which causes

D) poor productivity

No one can use automation if labour is cheaper.

A car wash in the UK used to be a machine. Now it's 6 Albanians with a manky rag & bucket each.

 

[SammyQ]

Fair play.

People don't like FPTP but if you have PR, you end up with an ungovernable mess (Italy, Greece) or a vaguely centre right coalition that rules in perpetuity (Germany).

FPTP can give one party a huge majority and it gets S**T done.

Ask Attlee. He managed to nationalise Coal, Steel, Rail, Water, created the NHS & Social Security and topped it off with 1m new council houses.

No way could that have been done under PR.

And it keeps the loonies out.

Anyone championing P.R. as a means of selecting a "governing body reflective of the populace" need only have lived in Northern Ireland ("Norn Iron") in the last two decades to realise the fallacy that it is. Admittedly, over there it was completely hamstrung by needing 'cross-community agreement' to pass anything substantial, and ye olde tribale politics reared up and bandjaxed any pretence of governance by negotiated agreement.

 

[Jacob]

How much of that was H&S, I used to really enjoy the break from academic studies in the metalwork shop.


If you have a glass of fresh drinking water and add a few grains of salt it will still be drinkable but add spoonfuls and it becomes un-drinkable.

Without a secure border you have no national security and without border controls you end up with a population that has no useful purpose and just cost you money to keep, much like if farmers reared cattle that they just fed and kept.

We have a secure border and also border controls, these are not the issue.
It is about how you handle the people once the border control system has picked them up.

 

[John Brown]

Importing more workers because yours are getting older just

A) kicks the can down the road

B) makes the eventual problem bigger

C) suppresses wages

which causes

D) poor productivity

No one can use automation if labour is cheaper.

A car wash in the UK used to be a machine. Now it's 6 Albanians with a manky rag & bucket each.

In my experience the six Albanians(or Polish in my case) do a much better job, especially if you want the inside cleaned as well. Certainly not cheaper than the machine, though.
Funny, I hear a lot of people complaining about the opposite thing when it comes to supermarket checkouts, used to be a person, now it's a machine.

 

[John Brown]

How much of that was H&S, I used to really enjoy the break from academic studies in the metalwork shop.


If you have a glass of fresh drinking water and add a few grains of salt it will still be drinkable but add spoonfuls and it becomes un-drinkable.

Without a secure border you have no national security and without border controls you end up with a population that has no useful purpose and just cost you money to keep, much like if farmers reared cattle that they just fed and kept.

Where in this country are you going to find a glass of fresh drinking water?

 

[Jacob]

Anyone championing P.R. as a means of selecting a "governing body reflective of the populace" need only have lived in Northern Ireland ("Norn Iron") in the last two decades to realise the fallacy that it is. Admittedly, over there it was completely hamstrung by needing 'cross-community agreement' to pass anything substantial, and ye olde tribale politics reared up and bandjaxed any pretence of governance by negotiated agreement.

Yebbut it's better than violent confrontations.
PR isn't a magic solution anyway - it depends on the circumstances and there are different ways of implementing it.
Could happen that in UK the tories would never gain power again!

 

[Spectric]

You will never find a any party that is 100% perfect, you just have to way up the choices and you soon realise they are very bleak. It comes down to giving Sunak more time to deliver his agenda whilst keeping economic stability, take a gamble with Labour and go into the unknown but there track record with the economy is not good, the Lib Dems have been around for years and achieved nothing, the Greens are a fringe party with some good ideas but could not run the country or just go for the wildcard, Reform as it is imposible for anyone to really make a bigger mess anyway. For me I see Labour as a threat to my pension, the last thing I want is for economic collapse at the point I draw my pension but is there really any way out of the mess the UK is now in as it has been digging itself into a hole for years which cannot simply be reversed. If I could change one thing in politics it would be to ensure there was a percentage of qualified people with sound track records in various areas of business in parliament, maybe we need Jacob in there to sharpen things up.

 

[Spectric]

Where in this country are you going to find a glass of fresh drinking water?

True, maybe bottled water but I dare say even that contains micro plastic's.

 

[sploo]

You will never find a any party that is 100% perfect, you just have to way up the choices and you soon realise they are very bleak. It comes down to giving Sunak more time to deliver his agenda whilst keeping economic stability, take a gamble with Labour and go into the unknown but there track record with the economy is not good, the Lib Dems have been around for years and achieved nothing, the Greens are a fringe party with some good ideas but could not run the country or just go for the wildcard, Reform as it is imposible for anyone to really make a bigger mess anyway. For me I see Labour as a threat to my pension, the last thing I want is for economic collapse at the point I draw my pension but is there really any way out of the mess the UK is now in as it has been digging itself into a hole for years which cannot simply be reversed. If I could change one thing in politics it would be to ensure there was a percentage of qualified people with sound track records in various areas of business in parliament, maybe we need Jacob in there to sharpen things up.

Reform/UKIP/The Brexit Party (whatever form the nutters are grifting from currently) is basically just the paramilitary wing of the Conservative Party. Whatever used to be considered the fringe/lunatic wing of the Tories has now taken over the Conservatives, and those that manage to be too unpleasant and inept even for the Cons finds themselves a home in Reform (e.g. 30p Lee)

I would suggest that as the worst decisions (for the country, the economy etc) over the last decade have pretty much all come from that crazy end of the Conservative party (e.g. the oxymoron that is ERG), a vote for the likes of Reform would simply be pouring jet fuel on an already burning fire.

Sure, Starmer is a Tory, but I'd take him any day of the week over the current Conservatives. With luck the Tories will get decimated in the election, the loons will mostly grift off to GBNews (or - like Farage - the US) and the Conservative party may be able to repair itself with some decent individuals. Then we could get back to boring politics; whereby we argue about differing (but valid) economic processes - rather than the clown show we've had over the last decade. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[John Brown]

You will never find a any party that is 100% perfect, you just have to way up the choices and you soon realise they are very bleak. It comes down to giving Sunak more time to deliver his agenda whilst keeping economic stability, take a gamble with Labour and go into the unknown but there track record with the economy is not good, the Lib Dems have been around for years and achieved nothing, the Greens are a fringe party with some good ideas but could not run the country or just go for the wildcard, Reform as it is imposible for anyone to really make a bigger mess anyway. For me I see Labour as a threat to my pension, the last thing I want is for economic collapse at the point I draw my pension but is there really any way out of the mess the UK is now in as it has been digging itself into a hole for years which cannot simply be reversed. If I could change one thing in politics it would be to ensure there was a percentage of qualified people with sound track records in various areas of business in parliament, maybe we need Jacob in there to sharpen things up.

Well, you've convinced me. I shall be voting for the party that's best for your pension. There was I, worrying about decency, morality, humanity and equality! A bit of perspective was all I needed!