The China Effect

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Eshmiel

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....Or maybe, from a previous but recent, age: "The Japanese Effect".

Once we Blighters named ourselves "workshop of the world" 'cos we were. I grew up in Tyneside in the 50s and 60s, which familiarised me with that workshop but, sadly, also its long decline. A major factor was the British inability to keep up with the innovation of newly-risen foreign industries of the many manufacturing kinds. The Japanese, Koreans and various others emergent after WWII, with a lot of newly-acquired industrial expertise, were able to innovate at a far faster rate than the often moribund British equivalent industries.

Even in the 50s and 60s, there was also the beginnings of the trend in The West to make things down to a price rather than up to a quality, in pursuit of greater sales buoyed up by advertising. The Japanese did both together (ever improving quality but at good prices).

Everything seemed to be affected, from cameras to ships. Woodworking tools seemed to escape the syndrome, perhaps, probably because the Far Eastern emergent industrialising nations had very different and well-established traditions in how they did woodwork, including very different tools from those of The West.

Now we have a similar effect with the rise of China as perhaps the new prime in manufacturing. The once awful cheese metal stuff is fading away to be replaced by very well- designed and engineered stuff, from e-cars to bicycles to .... woodworking tools. There may still be awful and suspiciously cheap stuff being made and flogged by the likes of TEMU but there are also very high quality items for a lot less than European, British and US equivalents. Planes are the obvious example but there are increasingly more, of other tool types.

Some of the traditional Far Eastern tools are also making inroads, replacing the European traditional tools in many sheds. Saws are the prime example perhaps.

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What should be our attitude, as buyers of woodworking tools? Inexpensive and high quality often contends with "political" considerations about the manufacturing nation, which can sometimes be difficult to resolve. But people do. How do you resolve it, when a high quality tool of the type you need appears with "Made in China" on a price tag half that for the LN, LV or Clifton equivalent, for example?
 
A minority can afford to buy the best based on reputation (LN, LV, etc). Most, despite regret at the decline of traditional industries, buy on a price and quality compromise.

That the Chinese can produce woodworking tools the equal of the best produced in the West is no surprise - they have a space program, make high quality cars, other consumer durables etc.

The Chinese are the latest in a succession of countries (Japan, eastern Europe, Korea, etc) which have developed industrial capability on the back of low labour rates and (often) low environmental and other regulatory standards.

Like it or not, what we may think as individual woodworkers will be subsumed into acceptance that decent quality at a competitive price will prevail.

That low prices may be achieved through exploitative working practices evidently has limited impact on appetites for consumer electronics, clothing, raw materials etc. A minority of individuals may feel differently - their views are of course respected (but irrelevant).
 
buy on a price and quality compromise.
I prefer to say balance, something that can do the job and for as long as you anticipate. If it is for a one off then why buy top quality but if it is earning you an income then buy top quality as it will repay itself.
 
A minority can afford to buy the best based on reputation (LN, LV, etc). Most, despite regret at the decline of traditional industries, buy on a price and quality compromise.

That the Chinese can produce woodworking tools the equal of the best produced in the West is no surprise - they have a space program, make high quality cars, other consumer durables etc.

The Chinese are the latest in a succession of countries (Japan, eastern Europe, Korea, etc) which have developed industrial capability on the back of low labour rates and (often) low environmental and other regulatory standards.

Like it or not, what we may think as individual woodworkers will be subsumed into acceptance that decent quality at a competitive price will prevail.

That low prices may be achieved through exploitative working practices evidently has limited impact on appetites for consumer electronics, clothing, raw materials etc. A minority of individuals may feel differently - their views are of course respected (but irrelevant).
Over the long term the increase in manufacturing and income drives up the workers wages, the standard of living, the societal expectations around H&S, and finally the cost of the product. Traditionally another region has then picked up the batten in this relay race, but is there another after China or will prices eventually have to increase? Mexico, India and Vietnam are touted in the many articles on the subject.

Regards buying all this stuff 'consumerism is the new religion' feels an apt model and one which I think tells a sad story about society. Personally I'm fortunate to be able choose anything between second hand and UK/US branded and manufactured. I tend to go secondhand unless it is something I see as an heirloom tool.
 
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But China is not a western economy, they cannot just ask for a payrise or threaten to go on strike and does China not keep it's currency value lower than it should be.

It was an assertion based on human nature, a quick google and the data tends to support my assertion, but I could just have been lucky and I've cherry picked something that suits.

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Or perhaps I don't need to cherry pick, as the next 3 or 4 results and news articles all discuss the trend. eg.
https://www.china-briefing.com/news...china-trends-and-implications-for-businesses/

F.
 
But China is not a western economy, they cannot just ask for a payrise or threaten to go on strike and does China not keep it's currency value lower than it should be.
Of course people can ask for a rise - the workforce grumble just like anywhere else in the world - and if your employer isn't paying what you think you're worth, people start looking for a job elsewhere. Staff turnover can be pretty high.

China is absolutely a restrictive state, but capitalism is alive and well.

@Fitzroy 's links are nothing surprising. As a economies upskill, wages rise.
Higher skilled better off employees are also likely to be thinking about their lifestyle and maybe put a value on reducing the pollution in cities like Beijing and Shanghai....
On an international level, this is what drives global manufacturing into one country after another to start again with a new pool of low wage labour.
 
My point of view comes from a different direction: helping out at numerous {more than 500 so far] Repair Cafés around the Home Counties. I now have a policy that, if it is made in China - and not by a recognised western manufacturer - I don't touch it.

Why? Because most of the design thought that has gone into it has been to make it difficult or impossible to dismantle, and impossible to reassemble without damage. We have a kit from iFixit of 40+ special screwdrivewe bits, to fit all the non-standard screw formats that China keeps inventing. And those screws will be hidden at the bottom of deep, narrow tunnels, rather than being - as everywhere else - more or less surface-mounted.

And when you DO get inside, the quality of the components and their mounting is just dire. The whole device is designed with built-in obsolescence, and impossible repair, to encourage you to buy another piece of tat to replace it.

I just hand it back to the - disappointed - owner, and advise them to buy something of minimum quality next time.
 
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My point of view comes from a different direction: helping out at numerous {more the 500 so far] Repair Cafés around the Home Counties. I now have a policy that, if it is made in China - and not by a recognised western manufacturer - I don't touch it.

Why? Because most of the design thought that has gone into it has been to make it difficult or impossible to dismantle, and impossible to reassemble without damage. We have a kit from iFixit of 40+ special screwdrivewe bits, to fit all the non-standard screw formats that China keeps inventing. And those screws will be hidden at the bottom of deep, narrow tunnels, rather than being - as everywhere else - more or less surface-mounted.

And when you DO get inside, the quality of the components and their mounting is just dire. The whole device is designed with built-in obsolescence, and impossible repair, to encourage you to buy another piece of tat to replace it.

I just hand it back to the - disappointed - owner, and advise them to buy something of minimum quality next time.
To be fair, isn't this a problem with a vast range of goods made just about everywhere. I don't think it was the Chinese who invented planned obsolescence, although some of their manufacturers were no doubt happy to climb on that particular bandwagon when they adopted various of the capitalist modes. And there are, certainly, many examples of well-made and perfectly serviceable Chinese items, woodworking planes being one example familiar to many here, I suspect.

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Whilst we're at it, we could also consider the "working conditions are bad in China" objection to buying Chines-made stuff. This is probably true, in but not all Chinese locales or manufacturers .... but its true of just about every other nation, including our fine British gig economy in which worker rights have been eroded to nothing much one can practically use since the days of Thatcher. And how do we feel about the effectively slave labour practiced on USA prison inmates by various US corporations?

Perhaps a case can be made for supporting local industry, not to "unsupport" foreign industries so much as to help provide a wider British range of manufacturing skills and knowledge as part of any nation's necessary and desirable infrastructure. Since that Thatcher put the final nail into the coffins of a lot of British industry (next to the nails hammered in over the decades by poor management and bolshy workers) in favour of reliance on finance capital (making money with money and producing nowt) Britain's wider population has suffered many degradations. Would a return to true industry and manufacturing be one necessary condition for mending this situation ...... ?
 
Would a return to true industry and manufacturing be one necessary condition for mending this situation ...... ?

Not since Tony Blair ruined the UK's education system.

When I was 16, just 5% of the 16-year cohort went on to university; many of the rest went onto apprenticeships and sandwich courses at Technical Colleges, to learn useful craft, manufacturing and industrial skills.

Then Tony Blair said in his 1997 Election Manifesto "What one issue do we prioritise above all others? Education! Education! Education!"

Now it's around 40% go to university. The techs were all 'advised' to convert into universities, where they could offer courses in 'Environmental Studies; Gender Studies, Sociology, Anti-Racist Mathematics, and Art History & Appreciation'. And where opting for any useful skill effectively demarcated you as "educationally sub-normal".

The result: industry and manufacturing are crying out for skilled apprentices. There are massive shortages in manufacturing, construction, hospitality and social care, and healthcare. And with the latest National Insurance surcharges, employers find it easier to find people with those skills abroad.

We, as a country, have turned our back on industry and manufacturing.
 
Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6 (so he might know just a little about these things) gave an interesting interview on Times Radio at about 15.15 about China and the threats.

Catch it on catch up!

I will post a link when I find it.
 
When Tony Blair said send 40% to uni he was absolutely and correct in assuming young folk need the very best higher education. What was somewhat lacking was what to do with all those educated folk. Go to Hong Kong those skills would be snapped up in a week. In this country it could take years. I've seen it happen. China is an incredibly vibrant place. Of course it paid a severe price in the 50s and 60s and 70s. This country is basically gone. Yes unskilled migrants coming from countries ruled by religious dictators think its great. But China is about 50 times more exciting, remember guys saying " back in the day you could punch the boss Friday and get another job monday" well that's china now. The more skilled the better your pay and conditions. There's little safety net, it's work or die, 12 hour shift OK then.
 
Donald trumps nationalist maga can't deny the truth the us is becoming second. Protecting your tech won't work because the Chinese are answerable to no one. When ussr collapsed deng xioaping realised he needed to embrace capitalism without kow towing. His plan has now born fruit. Mao was far to rigid and uncompromising to succeed(and simplistic) remember the four pest plan, destroy rats, flies, mozzies and finally sparrows. The first three helped reduce diseases the sparrows disrupted the ecosystem causing a huge famine. Mao tried to turn peasants into industrial workers causing death by neglecting farming.
 
it’s interesting - does having stable government enable longer term strategic thinking on pieces like economy? Avoiding short term vote winners for longer term growth.

Having visited China recently the advancements and wealth - particularly in Shanghai was exceptional.

They know their population is going to halve over the next 20 years or so the investments they are making now in automation and robotics to enable them to continue to supply the world with half the workforce is fascinating.

They can make to any quality too. The factories I visited had exceeding rigorous QC functions but could make around 50 different quality levels depending on the ask. Same factories making the luxury designer as the high street cheap and cheerful.

Interesting it’s Blair getting called out too- not sure it was him who shifted the Uk from a manufacturing to a service industry focused nation. Ensuring a steady supply of highly educated people to staff service based industries does make some sense.

Why the UK isn’t able to compete with the tech giants coming out of US university grads is something I’m pondering at the moment - we pioneered computing in the UK why haven’t we got IBM,Oracle,Microsoft,Apple etc equivalents
 
Why the UK isn’t able to compete with the tech giants coming out of US university grads is something I’m pondering at the moment - we pioneered computing in the UK why haven’t we got IBM,Oracle,Microsoft,Apple etc equivalents
I can provide part of the answer. It is very difficult to get decent financing. The vultures of venture capitalists ruined two good companies I knew. One of the ex-owners said "sell your house, children and put your wife on the streets before getting involved with venture capitalists"
My experience also involved a bank, having received an offer from a venture capitalist that involved a £250k loan from a bank, £250k grant form the Local Authority and £500k from the venture capitalist. The day before we got the money the venture capitalist withdrew giving the excuse of a minor dispute we had with a supplier which we had been open with them about. We later learnt via one of our customers, who had a BIL that worked for the parent bank, that the bank had all the managers in for the weekend and put a stop to all investment due to the high risk they had with various large management buyouts they were funding. Our bank then asked for our overdraft back having been alternating for the last year from increasing our overdraft to reducing it which played havoc with cash flow until they increased it again. When they could not sell us, the companies interested in buying us had no money, the bank put us into administration.
A couple of years later I was on a course and there were three bank managers on the same course who worked for different banks and they all said, over a few pints one night, that at the same time they were encouraged to give loans to as many customers as possible and then asked to get the loans back a couple of months later before being told to start lending again. All of them had customers go bust as a result.

Not forgetting the Governments lack of a buy British policy
 
What China has is massive state investment in infrastructure, education, research and development, trade, business etc.
Gone out of fashion in the UK and we are in decline.
Simple really.
Totalitarian states do have the advantage of power to make intelligent and informed decisions, whereas we are dependent on a raggle taggle army of financiers, gamblers, vested interests, brainless oligarchy, most obviously when it comes to climate change mitigation, amongst many other things.
We need a strong opposition to the establishment. Starmer mob are not it and seem to be acting for Israel.
 
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Having an economy whose succes is based on increasing house prices results in a lot of nothing. Why bother innovating. Money and innovation are not the same. Just like the Spanish after looting the new world it led to a vacuum of innovation.
 

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