Talking myself out of buying premium tools

[Ttrees]

Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
However I'd not be overly keen to buy used engineers tools on the bay again,
as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.

Some of those things might be common enough for a big box store, so just aiming to give some insight on what you can buy for your money,
What might one spend for some woodworkers aluminum ruler with a brand name on it?

A tenner can often go a long way if you shop around.
Locally homebase has a record/irwin no.5 1/2 plane on discount for 35 quid, cheaper than the no.4 beside it, with good thick casting, looked not bad TBH, the turn screw in the lever cap would be the worst part about it, wooden handles could be made fairly easily,
would have been tempted, nah, I'd just buy another Bailey.
It'd be good for a lender tool though, I'd have no attachment to it.
.....
maybe next week

 

[dzj]

Jascha Heifetz, the famous violinist did not start his career with the Guarneri del Gesu.
On the other hand, it wasn't an Asian-made violin shaped object either.
Perhaps it might be better to find a mentor who'll guide you through various tool related pitfalls.
I remember reading a story about a Japanese student who bought a very expensive chisel, only to have it
confiscated by his teacher. He wasn't ready to use it and it would be a shame to waste a wonderful tool on a novice.

 

[tibi]

Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
However I'd not be overly keen to buy used engineers tools on the bay again,
as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.

Some of those things might be common enough for a big box store, so just aiming to give some insight on what you can buy for your money,
What might one spend for some woodworkers aluminum ruler with a brand name on it?

A tenner can often go a long way if you shop around.
Locally homebase has a record/irwin no.5 1/2 plane on discount for 35 quid, cheaper than the no.4 beside it, with good thick casting, looked not bad TBH, the turn screw in the lever cap would be the worst part about it, wooden handles could be made fairly easily,
would have been tempted, nah, I'd just buy another Bailey.
It'd be good for a lender tool though, I'd have no attachment to it.
.....
maybe next week

I have almost no option to physically check specialized woodworking tools, so I must rely on reviews only. And if I see mixed reviews, I have an experience, that I will actually get the bad item instead of the good one, so I stay away from buying tools with mixed reviews.

e.g. If I would like to test a hand plane in my location, this is the only kind I can physically check out.

If I want to check some cheap imitation of a baily pattern, I need to travel some more. If I want to buy Veritas plane, I need to order from fine-tools, Germany or buy from some local reseller and pay the middle-man a rather big tip .
If I want to buy Lie-Nielsen, I must buy from Mars or Saturn, because they are sold out on Earth, unless I want some obscure model.

 

[TRITON]

Bat leather makes great strops apparently

As good as kitten ?.

 

[Doug B]

I was never invited to do some repairs at the Louvre Museum, so my only concern is that I will loose the bit or I need to exercise some effort to get it back to the chuck.

We can’t all get that gig you know.

 

[Ttrees]

It's the same deal in the west, send it over there where it's too expensive to return it.
I'd sooner take the chance on a cheap well finished tool than some brand name, if it's identical, take those vernier calipers for instance, how much for a Starret or Mitutoyo...
the finish on my calipers looks pretty good to me, look at difference of the finish between both rulers.
That would be a hint if looking for a calipers personally.
You can get very nice quality cheaply if you shop around.


A good surface plate of some description might be the sensible option.
Beyond a small sheet of glass, I couldn't find anything suitable myself, so I scraped my own from some sort of dense composite material.
If I didn't have that stuff, I would pay for a rectangular plate at least as long as the longest plane you plan on having.
You could make some straight edges and go and shop local or shop online for some hand planes if you can flatten them at home.

I have yet to see a bailey style plane that had some flaw that couldn't be sorted out by a bit of lapping.
(discounting some lapped by a numpty which you might see on job lots)

If buying used, or whatever, then make sure it has enough meat to the sole so if it's out by a bit, will still be good.
I'll admit that I messed my first bailey up, an old welded thing that I lapped badly and made it wafer thin, I could have likely got that sorted with some instruction had I asked, rather than copy misleading videos.

Whoever stated that a flat plate means you can lap mindlessly,
'cuz I fell for it hook line and sinker
Seems all the gurus I trusted suggested near the same thing, with no regard to keeping a very close eye on the perimeter/contact point for reference.

Another two lemons were a pair of 60 1/2 planes.
The movable mouth means that these must be lapped in a correct fashion, as to not make the sole convex.
The ridges for the sliding plate must be coplanar, and for that to happen the sole needs to be very flat.
I messed this up by mindlessly rubbing the sole on the plate expecting it to be perfect, yes I used taut paper and freshly brushed grit off after every other stroke, but never got there.

Those planes also had the Aziumth error to deal with, so are likely the most challenging tool you might be likely to encounter.
I could sort them easily now, but ended up buying a LN 60 1/2 which I've used maybe three times, as its at me folks.
The bailey's get used for everything, and from what I've seen a cheap one can be made work as good as a LN if you don't drop it.
(if you don't mind a bit of elbow grease)

Saws on the other hand, is more apt for the title of the thread,
Have you got any local places to get some?
They would likely travel better even if you had to ebay it.
Anything beyond a quick lick with a file, will likely be
more difficult to do than sorting anything with a plane out.

All the best
Tom

 

[D_W]

I have almost no option to physically check specialized woodworking tools, so I must rely on reviews only. And if I see mixed reviews, I have an experience, that I will actually get the bad item instead of the good one, so I stay away from buying tools with mixed reviews.

e.g. If I would like to test a hand plane in my location, this is the only kind I can physically check out.
View attachment 112632

If I want to check some cheap imitation of a baily pattern, I need to travel some more. If I want to buy Veritas plane, I need to order from fine-tools, Germany or buy from some local reseller and pay the middle-man a rather big tip .
If I want to buy Lie-Nielsen, I must buy from Mars or Saturn, because they are sold out on Earth, unless I want some obscure model.

one of those with a double iron will plane anything that's worth working. It'd be a more productive plane day to day than a LN or LV plane, too, but it would take a little bit of time for a beginner to get a feel for it. Most of the "improvements" in premium planes are overblown in terms of capability, but what they offer is the ability for a beginner to get something that works with little attention. I've been down that road, but as time went on, the premium planes are less productive, not more. Working thicker shavings when you can and not thinner is a time gain. using a lighter plane that still handles the same work, same (not personally a fan of coffin smoothing planes as they're pretty rough on a user in harder woods -the continental type like you're showing is easier on elbows, etc, even though it weighs the same.

But a smoother like the one above without a cap iron is pretty limited.

 

[tibi]

It's the same deal in the west, send it over there where it's too expensive to return it.
I'd sooner take the chance on a cheap well finished tool than some brand name, if it's identical, take those vernier calipers for instance, how much for a Starret or Mitutoyo...
the finish on my calipers looks pretty good to me, look at difference of the finish between both rulers.
That would be a hint if looking for a calipers personally.
You can get very nice quality cheaply if you shop around.


A good surface plate of some description might be the sensible option.
Beyond a small sheet of glass, I couldn't find anything suitable myself, so I scraped my own from some sort of dense composite material.
If I didn't have that stuff, I would pay for a rectangular plate at least as long as the longest plane you plan on having.
You could make some straight edges and go and shop local or shop online for some hand planes if you can flatten them at home.

I have yet to see a bailey style plane that had some flaw that couldn't be sorted out by a bit of lapping.
(discounting some lapped by a numpty which you might see on job lots)

If buying used, or whatever, then make sure it has enough meat to the sole so if it's out by a bit, will still be good.
I'll admit that I messed my first bailey up, an old welded thing that I lapped badly and made it wafer thin, I could have likely got that sorted with some instruction had I asked, rather than copy misleading videos.

Whoever stated that a flat plate means you can lap mindlessly,
'cuz I fell for it hook line and sinker
Seems all the gurus I trusted suggested near the same thing, with no regard to keeping a very close eye on the perimeter/contact point for reference.

Another two lemons were a pair of 60 1/2 planes.
The movable mouth means that these must be lapped in a correct fashion, as to not make the sole convex.
The ridges for the sliding plate must be coplanar, and for that to happen the sole needs to be very flat.
I messed this up by mindlessly rubbing the sole on the plate expecting it to be perfect, yes I used taut paper and freshly brushed grit off after every other stroke, but never got there.

Those planes also had the Aziumth error to deal with, so are likely the most challenging tool you might be likely to encounter.
I could sort them easily now, but ended up buying a LN 60 1/2 which I've used maybe three times, as its at me folks.
The bailey's get used for everything, and from what I've seen a cheap one can be made work as good as a LN if you don't drop it.
(if you don't mind a bit of elbow grease)

Saws on the other hand, is more apt for the title of the thread,
Have you got any local places to get some?
They would likely travel better even if you had to ebay it.
Anything beyond a quick lick with a file, will likely be
more difficult to do than sorting anything with a plane out.

All the best
Tom

I personally do not mind tweaking a cheaper / vintage plane to get it to a good working condition. I have bought a few saws that I have sharpened,set,straightened, painted handles, and now they perform very well. Also I have bought Stanley no.4 and no.5 and restored them.

I can buy only hardpoint saws in person. If I want something sharpenable, then I would need to buy online and probably abroad. I have bought all my saws to date from e-bay, except the gents saw.

 

[carpenteire2009]

I started out on my journey of building up a decent tool set more than 22 years ago. I started with new tools from the local hardware shop, Stanley, CK, Record etc, all of which were fine as regards quality and they continue to be used. As time went on and with access to the internet and the woodworking magazines of the time I started to discover the world of vintage tools and new premium tool makers. And that was the rock I perished on! Soon I was purchasing Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Clifton etc. Beautiful tools, each and every one of them, but they are rarely used. Now I tend to use the same trusted vintage Stanley and Record planes that I picked up at car boot sales, learning how to clean them up and get them working properly. These are go-to planes for the kind of basic woodwork and DIY that I do at home now. I was lucky enough to inherit some nice old tools that were in my family, really good old English chisels etc. which helped to fill out my tool kit. I'll never sell any of the premium stuff I did buy, it is nice to have and very occasionally use, but truth be told I get most satisfaction from using the good solid tools that were bought for very little money and work so well, because I spent time to get them that way. There is nothing to beat the satisfaction of using a tool that was once used by my great grand father either!

I did try my luck with some of the cheaper Anant, (new) Record and Stanley planes, trying to apply the same fettling techniques to see if I could get them to work well. I spent a lot of time on those tools, and to be fair they did work but they were still a poor imitation of the originals, so I gave them away.

I think we are spoiled for choice today- if you have a good eye and time to spend you can track down some good tools second hand for reasonable money and with the internet you can find out just about anything about how to fix/ repair or use that tool. With careful research and some money you can buy some of the best tools in the world online and have them delivered to your door- the amateur is no longer limited by what the local tool shop has on display. If I was starting over again I don't think I'd change a thing- I learnt a lot about tools and their use by buying as I did. I rarely bought "cheap" (poor quality) tools and rarely regretted any purchase. It took 20 years to build up the sort of tool kit that allows me to take on any project I want now and those tools and their use brings me a lot of happiness. Enjoy the journey!

 

[tibi]

I started out on my journey of building up a decent tool set more than 22 years ago. I started with new tools from the local hardware shop, Stanley, CK, Record etc, all of which were fine as regards quality and they continue to be used. As time went on and with access to the internet and the woodworking magazines of the time I started to discover the world of vintage tools and new premium tool makers. And that was the rock I perished on! Soon I was purchasing Lie Nielsen, Veritas, Clifton etc. Beautiful tools, each and every one of them, but they are rarely used. Now I tend to use the same trusted vintage Stanley and Record planes that I picked up at car boot sales, learning how to clean them up and get them working properly. These are go-to planes for the kind of basic woodwork and DIY that I do at home now. I was lucky enough to inherit some nice old tools that were in my family, really good old English chisels etc. which helped to fill out my tool kit. I'll never sell any of the premium stuff I did buy, it is nice to have and very occasionally use, but truth be told I get most satisfaction from using the good solid tools that were bought for very little money and work so well, because I spent time to get them that way. There is nothing to beat the satisfaction of using a tool that was once used by my great grand father either!

I did try my luck with some of the cheaper Anant, (new) Record and Stanley planes, trying to apply the same fettling techniques to see if I could get them to work well. I spent a lot of time on those tools, and to be fair they did work but they were still a poor imitation of the originals, so I gave them away.

I think we are spoiled for choice today- if you have a good eye and time to spend you can track down some good tools second hand for reasonable money and with the internet you can find out just about anything about how to fix/ repair or use that tool. With careful research and some money you can buy some of the best tools in the world online and have them delivered to your door- the amateur is no longer limited by what the local tool shop has on display. If I was starting over again I don't think I'd change a thing- I learnt a lot about tools and their use by buying as I did. I rarely bought "cheap" (poor quality) tools and rarely regretted any purchase. It took 20 years to build up the sort of tool kit that allows me to take on any project I want now and those tools and their use brings me a lot of happiness. Enjoy the journey!

Thank you very much. There are some tools, that I would buy vintage, e.g. planes no. 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 ( I want to try them If i like them better than 4 and 5, which I already have). But some vintage tools cost as much as new ones. E.g. vintage no.7 costs on ebay + import fees + shipping the same as Veritas bevel up jointer. Or I can buy locally a wooden jointer with double iron very cheap. Or I can buy a new stanley no.7 - and hope for the best. The same goes for router planes. Old Stanley 71 + import fees + shipping costs as much as new veritas router plane. If Paul Sellers did not go online, maybe we would have different prices for those tools

 

[carpenteire2009]

I think you have a very valid point about Paul Sellers, that and the fact that anybody can look up tools and put values on them that are quite often at odds with what their true value is, considering condition etc. A lot of delusional sellers out there trying to sell tools that are in very poor condition! Keep hunting, you may get lucky!

 

[Jameshow]

Reviews are good if buying unseen, some common engineers precision tools generally seem to be made to a better standard than other things I bought for similar money but for woodworking.
Marking out tools are about the only thing that I'd buy new, and for near everything else woodworking related has been on the bay or local.
However I'd not be overly keen to buy used engineers tools on the bay again,
as they may have had a long hard life in industry, and new equivalents being cheaper.

Some of those things might be common enough for a big box store, so just aiming to give some insight on what you can buy for your money,
What might one spend for some woodworkers aluminum ruler with a brand name on it?

A tenner can often go a long way if you shop around.
Locally homebase has a record/irwin no.5 1/2 plane on discount for 35 quid, cheaper than the no.4 beside it, with good thick casting, looked not bad TBH, the turn screw in the lever cap would be the worst part about it, wooden handles could be made fairly easily,
would have been tempted, nah, I'd just buy another Bailey.
It'd be good for a lender tool though, I'd have no attachment to it.
.....
maybe next week

5 1/2 record plane new?

Most of these planes are soba made.

Quality of casting are good.

Cheers James

 

[thetyreman]

you can also make your own tools! that's yet another option, not for the feint hearted and you need precise tools to even be able to do it well, but wooden planes can be surprisingly nice, the only downside being that the sole needs flattening periodically and the throat will get wider over time, but it's a good test of skills.

 

[tibi]

you can also make your own tools! that's yet another option, not for the feint hearted and you need precise tools to even be able to do it well, but wooden planes can be surprisingly nice, the only downside being that the sole needs flattening periodically and the throat will get wider over time, but it's a good test of skills.

Yes that is another option. I would like to build either Krenov style or Razee planes myself. I need to try out what will fit my hands better in the long use. Another thing is if I will use the pin or the wedge slot. Laminated or chiseled out? ... many options are there.

 

[thetyreman]

Yes that is another option. I would like to build either Krenov style or Razee planes myself. I need to try out what will fit my hands better in the long use. Another thing is if I will use the pin or the wedge slot. Laminated or chiseled out? ... many options are there.

I can recommend the krenov style, it can be built for a low cost, the highest cost being the blade and cap iron but they are still cheaper than a lot of vintage planes, you can get a much much tighter mouth as well and easily control this when making it, the book by david finck is excellent.

 

[tibi]

I can recommend the krenov style, it can be built for a low cost, the highest cost being the blade and cap iron but they are still cheaper than a lot of vintage planes, you can get a much much tighter mouth as well and easily control this when making it, the book by david finck is excellent.

I like personally the Krenov style more, but how does it feel in the hand if you have no tote/knob/horn? If I want to build a jack plane/scrub plane, would it be easy to push when removing rough material? I want smoother as well, but I would build a complete set.

What about blades? I can buy either Veritas/Hock versions or I can buy a double iron for wooden planes and cut it in half above the screw, so that it does not stick out too much - if the cap iron will still function properly.

 

[shed9]

Thank you very much. There are some tools, that I would buy vintage, e.g. planes no. 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 ( I want to try them If i like them better than 4 and 5, which I already have). But some vintage tools cost as much as new ones. E.g. vintage no.7 costs on ebay + import fees + shipping the same as Veritas bevel up jointer. Or I can buy locally a wooden jointer with double iron very cheap. Or I can buy a new stanley no.7 - and hope for the best. The same goes for router planes. Old Stanley 71 + import fees + shipping costs as much as new veritas router plane. If Paul Sellers did not go online, maybe we would have different prices for those tools

If it wasn't Paul Sellers then someone else would fill that slot in terms of exposure on Youtube. The same is true across the board of many industries and hobbies. I used to be able to pick up old MIR, Jupiter and Helios lenses, even Contax Zeiss for decent amounts before the onslaught of budding Youtube photographer channel creators. Incredibly oxymoronic in being advised by a Youtuber to buy that cheap under appreciated Russian lens before a Youtuber's advice makes it unaffordable and way overpriced.

You could contact an online seller, i.e. a dedicated web shop dealing in vintage hand tools and ask them to put a package together such as a block plane, a no 4, no 5.5, no 7 and some chisels for example (just an example - don't over analyse the options). You are more likely to receive decent tooling beyond the skeet shoot that is Ebay and you can benefit from the economies of scale in one shipment / import cost.

 

[D_W]

I think you have a very valid point about Paul Sellers, that and the fact that anybody can look up tools and put values on them that are quite often at odds with what their true value is, considering condition etc. A lot of delusional sellers out there trying to sell tools that are in very poor condition! Keep hunting, you may get lucky!

100 percent of the time, the way to check open market prices is to look only at sold items on eBay. Since eBay removed the cost to list and relist years ago, the listed price information has become meaningless.

 

[tibi]

If it wasn't Paul Sellers then someone else would fill that slot in terms of exposure on Youtube. The same is true across the board of many industries and hobbies. I used to be able to pick up old MIR, Jupiter and Helios lenses, even Contax Zeiss for decent amounts before the onslaught of budding Youtube photographer channel creators. Incredibly oxymoronic in being advised by a Youtuber to buy that cheap under appreciated Russian lens before a Youtuber's advice makes it unaffordable and way overpriced.

You could contact an online seller, i.e. a dedicated web shop dealing in vintage hand tools and ask them to put a package together such as a block plane, a no 4, no 5.5, no 7 and some chisels for example (just an example - don't over analyse the options). You are more likely to receive decent tooling beyond the skeet shoot that is Ebay and you can benefit from the economies of scale in one shipment / import cost.

I have pondered about this idea in the past, but I did not find a single shop where they had most of the tools at a condition I wanted at that time. But I will recheck those stores definitely in the future.

 

[thetyreman]

I like personally the Krenov style more, but how does it feel in the hand if you have no tote/knob/horn? If I want to build a jack plane/scrub plane, would it be easy to push when removing rough material? I want smoother as well, but I would build a complete set.

What about blades? I can buy either Veritas/Hock versions or I can buy a double iron for wooden planes and cut it in half above the screw, so that it does not stick out too much - if the cap iron will still function properly.

I've never found the krenov ones having no handle to be an issue, and mine is 55 degrees as well, don't let that put you off, once set up they feel wonderful and it should sing through the wood, mine is a smoother which I designed for figured woods, you could in theory add in a handle or horns if it really bothers you, best to make one first and see how it feels to you.