Suggestions for starting again.

[Jacob]

You can't "design" a business. To start one you make some stuff and see if you can flog it.
If it sells that tells you which way to go and the business takes care of itself.
I wouldn't worry about finance, banks, twats in suits, etc.

You can’t “design” furniture, you just nail some wood together and call it a chair...
Seriously though, you stand a much better chance of making money if you do a bit of homework and possibly talk to the odd pineapple in a suit.

Nope. You stand a much better chance if you just start doing it. Twats are in suits because they can't get proper jobs or run businesses.

 

[Beau]

sadly, its not all to do with how good the stuff you make is, its alot to do with how you market it and how you come across to clients. Theres loads of woodworkers out there IMO churning out great products but who have crappy websites, naff marketing ideas and don't like networking and interacting with other people so they are destined for 60 hr weeks working for a low amount per hour. On the other hand theres people that tick all the right boxes and "know how to charge" and for them it will be easier. Unfortunately if often seems those that are artisans lack business nous and those that do have that, produce rubbish quality then you have the few that are lucky to have both (and no I aint one of those lol)

PS use a free Wordpress theme and customise (or not) it for a website......

EDIT
someone alot wiser than me told me a good few years ago "never go back". How right he was :roll:

Hello,

It's not a lot to do with how you market it, it is almost entirely to do with it! But I've not met anyone, Custard re-enforcing this, who has the silver bullet solution of how to. Anyone have any clues?

And about never going back, I have been bitten once and should have more sense to try again. But I make things, I always have and my job at the moment is actually preventing me from making stuff. The kids don't want to; it is like pulling teeth trying to get them to. Craft in school is dead. It is getting worse. I have to do something more creative than I am now. If I wait just a few more years it will be too late, I'm not young anymore. The only positive is, my job pays so poorly, I should be able to turn over enough to remain poor! :lol:

Mike.

well I dont have a silver bullet but I can say for sure that todays public embrace businesses that are open and transparent. Gone are the days of hiding behind websites, newspaper ads and your products etc and being relatively anon. People buy from people. Today you (not you necessarily!) need to be interacting on FB etc, engaging with people , you tube vids and putting your self out there and the reason this works is so few people feel comfortable doing it so don't

Interesting what you say about people buy from people. In my new line of work a friend recommended we get a little video done and another friend made one up for us. He does do it professionally so it's not a bodge job done on a phone. It's a not all about the machines but more about us and how we ended up doing what we are doing. I was very hesitant about spending money having it done but we put it up on our website and no doubt our customer love it and we often get favourable comments. They feel like the know us so a it's great ice breaker. We are only selling logs and it helps with this so when you think about the relationship that you need to have for making bespoke furniture a video could well work wonders.

 

[cowfoot]

Twats are in suits because they can't get proper jobs or run businesses.

 

[mr rusty]

FWIW, I am a marketing guy first and a woodworker second. I've recently been making sash windows for a house refurb project after looking around the market and finding a) they are expensive to buy if you want decent quality and b) they have to be made to fit, and if my house is anything to go by, the dimensions of the reveal are not consistent.

With my marketing head on, you have to specialise - become the go-to person fro whatever you do. With my woodworker head on, I doubt you can make enough just doing the "woodwork" when up against computer controlled manufacturing, so you have to "add value" in the service.

A sash window repair or re-install requires a lot more than just the woodwork - measuring, style, glazing, knowledge, building regs, fensa etc BUT none of that is insurmountable. Just a thought! I know what it's like to be stuck in a rut. I was 10 years ago, and left the day job to start a cafe/food outlet (on a sort of "pret" model). Cost me a huge amount of money and only lasted a year! But don't let that stop you, just don't over reach and make sure you always have an exit strategy!

 

[Eric The Viking]

... With my marketing head on, you have to specialise - become the go-to person for whatever you do...

And with mine on, too, that's definitely the thing!

Be in a "space" where nobody else is, for all sorts of reasons:

1. If your marketplace needs you (rather than the other way round) that's a HUGE advantage.

2. Price comparisons are hard: people may or may not be conscious of the "value you're adding", but they are far less likely to judge you on price if what you do is unusual, bordering on unique. You need to be affordable to your target market, but if that's a wealthy or a corporate one, your prices can reflect that, to your advantage.

3. Entry/exit barriers: If your wealth of experience gives you an edge that others will find hard to match, use that!

E.
(also a marketer, of around 25 years experience).

 

[custard]

Hello,

Custard, I had stuff in interior design shops last time. In fact I have a few small items in a gallery in Knutsford at the moment, and West Kirby. How does it work exactly? The gallery mark up makes an already dear thing into a ridiculously unsalable thing IME. I looked at a place in Chester once, and the owner, who thought I was a buyer rather than a potential exhibitor, almost angrily moaned that the price of the furniture I was looking at was a high because the maker wouldn't come down on his end enough. Needless to say, I didn't suggest my stuff. Once a customer rang me direct to remake a piece of mine they had seen in an interior design shop as they were shrewd enough to realise the mark up was more than double the 'actual' price. That interior shop has now gone, though it was one of the better ones at the time. Another interior shop I tried, in Heswall, lots of money there, was owned by a wife of a banker and just playing at it; you get that a lot. She sold a few lamps if mine, I suspect she actually bought them herself, in reality. She made (a customer made?) a silly offer on a cheval mirror I made, which was too cheap for what it was. I said I would design one for the price she had in mind, but she couldn't see why I wouldn't sell the original. She had it in her shop window for months, despite me saying and her promising not to. I had a bloody hard job getting it back; I think she liked the shop dressed with my stuff for her image. The exposed maple parts have now a rather unsightly yellow suntan, basically ruined, so my wife has it, she doesn't mind. The number of items moved from shop to shop remaining unsold and then needing refinishing or just donating to a grateful friend in a slightly ratty state, makes me wonder if interior design type shops are worth the trouble.

Mike.

The main part of the furniture I have on commission sale is slab top tables and desks. By virtue of what they are they address some of the problems you've raised. The shopkeeper can use them for displaying other items, and as they fulfil the duty of a display cabinet (along with being "local" production) the shopkeepers are willing to accept a lower mark up, I gave a bit on my expectations, and together we found a price that we could both accept. The nature of these pieces means no two are alike, so there's no issue with price comparisons elsewhere.

However, the slab top market, which has been a commercial lifeline for me and several other makers I know, is probably approaching its sell-by date. The price of good quality slabs keeps rising, a number of timber yards are offering slabs direct to the public, and the quality is tumbling as everyone piles in. However, right now the demand is still there, so it's a case of making hay while the sun shines.

 

[Jacob]

The idea of a niche completely contradicts that the vast majority of businesses are doing very similar stuff to their competitors, in much the same way.
You may find yourself in a niche market, you may end up mainstream and all stages in between are possible.

If like Mike you are very competent craftsman it doesn't mean you have to make "high end" stuff, it also means you can make ordinary things better and probably more efficiently, than the competition.

To find out which way to go you just have to get started, preferably by making things you like making.

 

[Droogs]

Hi Woodbrains,
It can be a hard choice mate. So far yo appear to be thinking of things in a rather narrow field of view (as far as I'm reading). Rather than trying to enter a market that is fairly well saturated such as kitchens and general furniture, why not think outside the box. When I was trying to get things back on track, I had a good look at what I knew and enjoyed and this turned out to be woodworking and IT. So now I make "modded" games consoles, PCs and intergrated IT furniture, I spice these up with quriky designs that take a boring box to a fully veneered, inlaid with marquetry and petra dura centrepiece for the home. I have clients give me the picture they want on the outside of their box, re-create it with marquetry etc and they get a unique piece.

So think about what you know and where you cn apply it out of the ordinary that you think people will want

hth

 

[custard]

It's not a lot to do with how you market it, it is almost entirely to do with it! ... Anyone have any clues?

I hesitate to give advice, as I said before I haven't once hit my financial targets across a full year as a custom furniture maker. All I can do is share those things that have worked reasonably well.

I've found a way of exhibiting at a few big county shows for virtually no outlay. One in particular runs a competition sponsored by the Forestry Commision and that gets my work in front of over 100,000 people. Every year that reliably brings in a few commissions and those commissions often lead to other enquiries. It's not however a self fuelling virtuous circle, if I stopped doing it I'm pretty sure the work would dry up within a couple of years.

One thing I always try and do is get additional sales on the back of any commission. Someone orders a hall table, great I'll sell them a mirror to go with it. Someone orders a desk, do they want a chair in a matching timber. Over the course of a year that adds up.

I know you trained under Krenov at the College of the Redwoods. You can grab a small advantage from that. It's not a silver bullet solution but neither is it nothing. I've got a similarly prestigious training background and I milk it for everything it's worth. Don't expect clients to open their cheque books at the first mention of Krenov's name, but there are some occasions when it will definitely tip the balance. Despite the virtual death of the studio furniture market a lot of clients have a secret (or not so secret) hope that they're still buying the Chippendales of tomorrow. Signing your work and making sure they know your training credentials certainly doesn't hurt, a "cabinet on stand" from someone who trained at the feet of the master is more valuable than a "cabinet on stand" from any old Joe Sawdust.

A couple of years ago a local pier was refurbished and I bought up a load of the salvaged Greenheart, turned it into garden furniture and sold it via a local garden centre. That was a bit of a bonanza, and it made me appreciate the value of trumpeting local or notable timber. I know a couple of makers who did a similar thing when Nelson's Victory was restored a few years back. They incorporated salvaged scraps into furniture, and given the yachting heritage where I live, they made out like bandits for a couple of years. It's clear to me that unique timbers gives the small maker an edge over the high street. By making fairly standard Shaker style pieces in spectacular Curly Cherry or Fiddleback Maple, or fairly standard Arts & Crafts pieces in Tiger Oak or Brown Oak I can get a hefty premium and avoid being crushed by price comparisons. It's a lot of work to track down truly exceptional boards, but IMO it's worth it. Most of my clients don't want purely functional furniture, they commission because they want something that's a feature. Achieving that impact via design alone is risky unless you're exceptionally talented, the fact is original design runs you straight into the "Marmite" problem. And if you are that talented then you'd be better off sticking to the drawing board and leaving the making to someone else. But producing fairly standard pieces in jaw droopingly spectacular timbers gets you to the same end point with considerably less risk.

Then there's the issue that you'll almost inevitably end up combining furniture making with something else, and choosing the right "something else" is probably the biggest factor that determines success or failure. Pretty much every maker that I know who has kept going for more than a few years does it by blending furniture with a more lucrative side line. And the exceptions only manage it because they have a supportive partner in a well paid job, took very early retirement on a decent pension, packed in a fat job in the city after trousering a packet, or some similar reason that exempts them from the financial laws of physics. I've tried a few side lines that have worked for me, but they're mainly viable because of my location, yacht fit outs and "equestrian furniture" (sounds whacky I know but you'd be surprised at how many trophy stables get built and create a demand for high end saddle racks, mounting blocks, bridle racks, etc). The work that I see other makers doing almost always slots into a short list of areas, heritage joinery, joinery packages, teaching, or kitchens and fitted work. That or they stumble across some highly specialised side line, it could be anything from humidors to wooden presses for bookbinding. Just something that turns a profit in the fallow periods between commissions. The problem is these side lines can crowd out the furniture making that got you into the craft in the first place. That's the issue I face, if I was more commercially orientated I'd be winding down the furniture making to almost nothing and concentrating on yacht interior work, it just pays so much better and so much more reliably.

Hope there's something there that's useful. As I said before, I haven't once hit my targets across a full trading year, so I'm no advertisement for guaranteed riches as a furniture maker, but if you're determined to make the leap then maybe there's something from my experiences that you can profit from.

Good luck!

 

[woodbrains]

Hi Woodbrains,
It can be a hard choice mate. So far yo appear to be thinking of things in a rather narrow field of view (as far as I'm reading). Rather than trying to enter a market that is fairly well saturated such as kitchens and general furniture, why not think outside the box. When I was trying to get things back on track, I had a good look at what I knew and enjoyed and this turned out to be woodworking and IT. So now I make "modded" games consoles, PCs and intergrated IT furniture, I spice these up with quriky designs that take a boring box to a fully veneered, inlaid with marquetry and petra dura centrepiece for the home. I have clients give me the picture they want on the outside of their box, re-create it with marquetry etc and they get a unique piece.

So think about what you know and where you cn apply it out of the ordinary that you think people will want

hth

Hello,

I'm not thinking narrow, freestanding kitchens was just one of many thoughts that cross my mind. People will always buy them in some form or other, so I thought it might be a starting place. I am fully open to any suggestions, as wild and whacky as you like.

Marquetry and petra dura IT furnture, that sounds interesting, do you have any examples? I'm not trying to pinch ideas, honest, but the idea of marquetry in this modern world seems unlikely; it would be interesting to see how you manage to meld the two.

Thanks for the ideas.

Mike.

 

[doctor Bob]

I wouldn't consider doing kitchens unless you have worked in a commercial bespoke kitchen workshop.
People think kitchens are easy, trust me unless you know what your doing you will make some very expensive mistakes and find it very difficult to compete with local companies that have all the kit.

Working on margins as the following, one third materials, one third labour and one third profit................... do you think you can make your existing wage or more.

I personally would never have left paid employment unless I was confident that in the long term I would be earning substantially more on my own. People talk a good game about the freedom of self employment, being your own boss etc............ it's bolloxs, being the boss is very stressful, can be exceptional long hours, dealing with awkward clients "who are your boss", don't do it on a whim, know your figures, market and where you are going to get your business from. Don't listen to some of the BS spouted here ........... it's not their houses on the line, it's yours!!!!!!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Stop trying to knobble the competition Bob! You're in the South East, Mike's in the North West; he's not going to be travelling that far looking for kitchen work - you're quite safe!

 

[Flynnwood]

Don't listen to some of the BS spouted here ........... it's not their houses on the line, it's yours!!!!!!

You may be miffed in your job, but it is paying the bills?

Most of the 20 something year olds I know don't have a clue about 2008/2009 and the effects thereof.

I'm not saying "don't have a dream". However ....

What would happen if your self employed income was £7K pa?

Anyone around here over 50 (skilled or not) is unlikely to become PAYE again.

You can always bring to the workplace some fun and have a laugh with those you interact with, to make the job and days and life more enjoyable

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Dr Bob, noted; I wasn't fixated on doing kitchens, it was just a preliminary thought. I have done some before, but more along the lines of sideboard/dresser in a more modern style, along with dining tables, benches, larder cupboards etc. When I say freestanding it could be fitted, or semi fitted, I'm not intractable on what exactly. But I wouldn't be using industry standard stuff; no MFC, no cup hinges, no drawer slides. I don't want to compete with the businesses already doing these things well enough. I was thinking difference. What do you think I should do that is better?

Flynnwood, my job doesn't really pay the bills, too much detail probably, but I gross 15K and I had to negotiate hard for that; it is the ceiling and will not improve. So while it is not truly diabolical, I have a house that is in a low rent area, I'd rather not bring my daughter up here. The hobby workshop I have is 1/2 hour drive and a tunnel toll away, in my mum's back garden, as there is no room for one where I live. Not convenient for after work puttering, so weekends only really and that is often done under duress as I should spend more time with my little girl and missus.

Having a laugh at work! The D and T department is small, all women (apart from me before anyone comments!) and I regularly only work with one of those. My main contact is with school children; not a lot of workshop banter allowed! It should be a rewarding job, but it isn't; sh#+house high is actually quite stressful. Don't get me wrong, some of the students are lovely and I always go the extra mile for them, and there is reward in itself there, but the vast majority are vacuous, moronic, lazy, belligerent and rude. Most kids that are on the DandT course are there because no one else wants them on theirs. I shouldn't admit this, but at the moment I am making almost all of the GCSE projects, they simply will not get done if I don't. And if we don't get the results....But this is hardly stretching my grey matter or skills. I don't think I can do this for another 18 years until I retire.

Mike.

 

[MikeG.]

........I hesitate to give advice, as I said before I haven't once hit my financial targets across a full year as a custom furniture maker. All I can do is share those things that have worked reasonably well..........

Great post, Custard.

 

[Flynnwood]

I don't think I can do this for another 18 years until I retire.

Mike.

PM sent to you Mike, as a suggestion (hammer)

 

[doctor Bob]

Hello,

Dr Bob, noted; I wasn't fixated on doing kitchens, it was just a preliminary thought. I have done some before, but more along the lines of sideboard/dresser in a more modern style, along with dining tables, benches, larder cupboards etc. When I say freestanding it could be fitted, or semi fitted, I'm not intractable on what exactly. But I wouldn't be using industry standard stuff; no MFC, no cup hinges, no drawer slides. I don't want to compete with the businesses already doing these things well enough. I was thinking difference. What do you think I should do that is better?

$64000 question ..................... the truth is I have no idea.
When my business partner and me started we invested £18000 into the business and went for it. We got lucky I suppose.
In truth my advice would be to talk to business owners. Speed and confidence is everything.
I know a lot of professional woodworkers, some are committed to artisan furniture making, they are all skint and usually have no work, they all have pieces of furniture in their workshops which they made years ago in the hope of selling and never found a buyer .......... only make commissioned work! Any type of work is better than no work.

 

[dzj]

Perhaps a year or 2 working for a joinery and/or cabinet making shop, before you start on your own.
A fact-finding mission of sorts.

 

[Chris152]

Mike

One way I found of coping with a long-term job/ career that I wasn't finding as fulfilling as I wanted was to create for myself a 2-year plan. In the end I didn't need it as other things changed, but immediately I had the plan, things started to feel better in work. The plan was to stick at the job for 2 years in the course of which I was starting to try things out/ explore markets/ do work on the side. That's advice others have given, but the time limit's a good thing - it means your creative skills/ sense of self/ whatever have another outlet or place to be grounded, you have a clear goal and time limit to endure something that's making you unhappy, but you still get to pay the bills while you do so. Just a thought.

C

 

[Peter Sefton]

There is a real shortage of good makers out there in furniture and joinery, you should be able to walk into a good job. Self employment is so much harder than employed people think and not for everyone.

Cheers

Peter