Statins and statistics

[Jacob]

Exactly this.

Modern logic seems to be:

I have never crashed a commercial passenger airliner. Trained pilots sometimes do. Therefore it's safer for me (not a pilot) to fly your plane.

I have never killed a patient on an operating table. Trained surgeons sometimes do. Therefore it's safer for me (not a surgeon) to perform your operation.

I have never misdiagnosed or given a patient the wrong drugs. Trained doctors sometimes do. Therefore it's safer for me (not a doctor) to tell you what meds to take.

You have to take note of the expert advice but also look at your personal circumstances.
Diet and exercise also advised by the experts but is a hard road for some so they are a bit chary about it.
I'll let you know how I get on, if I'm still alive in a month or so!

 

[Vulcan]

After watching an Alexander van Tulleken video on ultra processed food I started looking more closely at the ingredients of the “food” on supermarket shelves. This has severely curtailed the number of products I’m prepared to buy from them now. I have no idea what effect some of these ingredients have on people but I wouldn’t be surprised if heart problems might be among them?

 

[sploo]

You have to take note of the expert advice but also look at your personal circumstances.
Diet and exercise also advised by the experts but is a hard road for some so they are a bit chary about it.
I'll let you know how I get on, if I'm still alive in a month or so!

Personal circumstances should be taken into consideration by the doctor prescribing the drug. They will (or should) be reacting to guidance given for that medicine based on the outcomes of well controlled clinical trials of the drug (which should have an appropriate variety of different patient subjects; in order to provide meaningful data for the types of people likely to be prescribed the drug).

Note I say should. I've never crashed a plane - unlike pilots. Doctors may get it wrong.

 

[Spectric]

The food to worry about is that which just last and last before any signs of going off or mold. Fresh bread is much nicer than the ready sliced stuff but becomes something different the next day whereas sliced bread seems to last for around a week.

 

[woodieallen]

Your Doctor is Wrong about Cholesterol.

Click on 'Watch on YouTube' link and video will play.

Mmmm....how many peer-reviewed paper are quoting his 'viewpoint' ? I suspect none.

 

[Jacob]

Personal circumstances should be taken into consideration by the doctor prescribing the drug. They will (or should) be reacting to guidance given for that medicine based on the outcomes of well controlled clinical trials of the drug (which should have an appropriate variety of different patient subjects; in order to provide meaningful data for the types of people likely to be prescribed the drug).

...

There is a long list of side effects associated with statins (and lots of other drugs) but these aren't necessarily discovered by "well controlled clinical trials" - many are just "reported". There is an NHS yellow card scheme for you to report if you feel you should. This is probably the limit of the research on many of these unpredictable outcomes, which are merely "noted".
No point in having this list unless when one shows up then some action is taken to see whether or not it's coincidental.
That's what I have done, Stopped taking the drug and resulted in almost immediate relief!
Two OK alternatives; carry on taking it but with regular laxatives and monitoring, or more difficult; stop taking it and start fairly strict cholesterol reducing diet.
Docs don't particularly recommend the latter in the first instance because it's not an easy thing to stick to.
So I'm now looking to find the difference between low carb and low cholesterol diets. They overlap but aren't quite the same. Low carb is for weight reduction and/or diabetes 2. Low cholesterol is for heart and circulation risk.
And more exercise - C25K again! and more cycling. You soon notice how many decrepit old people there are staggering about trying to keep fit - so it's not so difficult to join in!

 

[Jacob]

Mmmm....how many peer-reviewed paper are quoting his 'viewpoint' ? I suspect none.

Monster is a google victim - he just choose what he wants to hear and ends up being wrong about everything!

 

[Chris152]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jacob. I've just been advised to start statins and was unaware of side effects. I'm on immunotherapy which isn't going to stop til I do, and the side effects from that can be pretty awful (I've been relatively lucky so far, and the treatment's been doing its job) - the last thing I need is more nasty side effects. Having read the thread, I just called to make an appointment with the practice nurse to see what I might be able to achieve with diet - lately, I've been eating plenty of lovely French cheeses because I love it, and doing less exercise since therapy started - in spite of knowing for years that I needed to look after bad cholesterol levels. So maybe if I cut that out and get some exercise in, I can avoid the statins. We'll see.

 

[sploo]

Mmmm....how many peer-reviewed paper are quoting his 'viewpoint' ? I suspect none.

I saw "Holistic Doctor" and closed the window. That's all you need to know. Good peer-reviewed scientific papers don't deal in woo.

 

[sploo]

There is a long list of side effects associated with statins (and lots of other drugs) but these aren't necessarily discovered by "well controlled clinical trials" - many are just "reported". There is an NHS yellow card scheme for you to report if you feel you should. This is probably the limit of the research on many of these unpredictable outcomes, which are merely "noted".

Then medical advice for those drugs would be updated if any reported side effects were considered to be valid and statistically significant. So - no difference (GP still gets info from the medical advice provided by the manufacturer of the drugs; whether that's come from clinical trials, or updated since due to wider findings).

 

[Jacob]

Then medical advice for those drugs would be updated if any reported side effects were considered to be valid

The lists given are of "reported" side effects and presumably the more they are reported the more they are considered valid. They tend to grade them from common downwards.
https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/rosuvastatin/side-effects-of-rosuvastatin/

 

[Jacob]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jacob. I've just been advised to start statins and was unaware of side effects. I'm on immunotherapy which isn't going to stop til I do, and the side effects from that can be pretty awful (I've been relatively lucky so far, and the treatment's been doing its job) - the last thing I need is more nasty side effects. Having read the thread, I just called to make an appointment with the practice nurse to see what I might be able to achieve with diet - lately, I've been eating plenty of lovely French cheeses because I love it, and doing less exercise since therapy started - in spite of knowing for years that I needed to look after bad cholesterol levels. So maybe if I cut that out and get some exercise in, I can avoid the statins. We'll see.

I'm a bit of a cheese addict too.
There are good and bad cheeses!
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/cheese
https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...utrition/cheese/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly

 

[DRC]

There is, as far as I know, a loose coupling between cholesterol and diet, genetics being more significant. I may be wrong, however.
Interested to know what the horrible side effects from Bisoprolol were, as I take it - I recently got my GP to halve the dose, as I suspected it was making me short of breath. Have felt a bit better since.

I experienced coldness i.e. feeling cold, all the time, plus pins and needles and numbness in my hands/ fingers loss of usefulness of arms, and severe dizziness.
Sorry for the delay in answering.

 

[martin45]

Reactions to drugs can be remarkably individual and just because its not common does not mean it can't happen. I read a coroners court sitting a few years ago about a lady who had an allergic reaction to "colofac" and died. This is very commonly prescribed for IBS. Up to that point there had been no deaths worldwide attributed to it.
I had had an adverse reaction to Omeprazole after being on it about 8 years. Two liver functions went nuts (and felt auful). Off it for a year and back on for the exact same result. None of the alternatives are as good.
I was through a range of statins all causing problems particularly with my stomach. I'm on Ezetimibe now and seems to be working ok.

 

[NickDReed]

Here's a shocking story for you.....a 82yr old mate of mine has been suffering with 'his nerves' for quite a while and 'we' finally persuaded him to go and have a chat to his doctor. Unbeknownst to us another 80+ friend of his told him to ask the doctor to put him on statins.....new doctor (not seen before - so assume a locum) met him and actually asked him what he wanted???? so he said statins.....long story short, the pharmacist in the local chemist in no uncertain terms refused his prescription on the grounds that if she had given him the tablets he'd have died within days as (in her words) "the doctor has completely ignored all of the other tablets he was taking".....this happened about 5 weeks ago, couldn't make it up.

Happens A LOT more than you'd like to believe.......

 

[John Brown]

I experienced coldness i.e. feeling cold, all the time, plus pins and needles and numbness in my hands/ fingers loss of usefulness of arms, and severe dizziness.
Sorry for the delay in answering.

No problem. Thanks.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks for starting this thread, Jacob. I've just been advised to start statins and was unaware of side effects. I'm on immunotherapy which isn't going to stop til I do, and the side effects from that can be pretty awful (I've been relatively lucky so far, and the treatment's been doing its job) - the last thing I need is more nasty side effects. Having read the thread, I just called to make an appointment with the practice nurse to see what I might be able to achieve with diet - lately, I've been eating plenty of lovely French cheeses because I love it, and doing less exercise since therapy started - in spite of knowing for years that I needed to look after bad cholesterol levels. So maybe if I cut that out and get some exercise in, I can avoid the statins. We'll see.

Most statin users are OK apparently so maybe you should give it a go, but be on alert for side effects! They aren't obvious and get confused with other health issues.
All drugs seem to have them, I don't know if Statins are worse than others.

 

[Spectric]

As they say, no pain no gain so maybe to get any benefits from anything there is some pain somewhere to put up with.

 

[Vulcan]

This is interesting.

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/behind-the-headlines/cholesterol-and-statins#:~:text=The lead author Dr Uffe,a prominent campaigner against statins.

Edit: And this just popped up on YouTube

 

[Jacob]

This is interesting.

Yes it is.

https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/behind-the-headlines/cholesterol-and-statins#:~:text=The lead author Dr Uffe,a prominent campaigner against statins.

I accept the pro statin theory but the more immediate issue for me has been the apparent side effects, which seem like the only solid ground in a sea of ideas!

Edit: And this just popped up on YouTube

Yup I expect he's right. At least these were staples long before capitalism came along.
Except for sugar of course, which was almost unknown until, along with cotton and the slave trade, was virtually the introduction to modern capitalism itself, red in tooth and claw, at its worst. History repeating itself but in different ways.
At the end of the vid he promotes the Keto diet which seems to be exactly the opposite of low cholesterol diets and most definitely not for everybody, or anybody!
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2019/april/a-cardiologists-take-on-the-keto-diet