Spear & Jackson's "Spearior 52"?

[woodbrains]

Hello,

There are many more serious issues to Eric Gill that should evoke criticism, other than his philosophies on craftsmanship or the way he dressed. As ever, missing the point.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

There are many more serious issues to Eric Gill that should evoke criticism, other than his philosophies on craftsmanship or the way he dressed. As ever, missing the point.

Mike.

Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
Gill wasn't the only artist/craftsman who was a *** crazed perv, by a long chalk. Not that that's an excuse but he was relatively harmless compared to others. Even poor old Lowry is getting the finger of suspicion lately.

PS I think Gill would be entertained by "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" - he was not too happy with arts n crafts nonsense (except his own) and was working towards something else. He should have gone abroad. Bauhaus would have sorted him out!

 

[G S Haydon]

"go straight for sanding disc on a drill, surform rasp etc with the most sophisticated tool being perhaps a card scraper. All to be finished with ROS or by hand with sand paper and cork blocks"

sometimes it's best to stick with the traditional approach http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFydYZjs5T4 :wink:

 

[Jelly]

And bodging is another field of woodworking that is extremely skilled. Wrongly Used as an insult for poor craftsmen, again shows lack of understanding and ignorance; as is ridiculing late and highly regarded craftsmen, like Gill, Maloof and Krenov, not around to defend themselves. You truly are a Philistine, and owning a few old saws does not change that. Using them to cut up rotten old pallets only illustrates the fact.

I have to say, I find your comment on using old saws to cut up pallets being somehow wrong most strange... My tools are first and formost Tools, yes some of them are also wonderful artifacts, but that's secondary; It saddens me to see tools which are reduced to mere collectors items by rarity or value, when they remain perfectly serviceable.

I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools.

When I first went to work in a research lab, my supervisor piped up to us with "Drink deep, or taste not the pierian spring." and I countered him with "a little bit of knowlege may be a dangerous thing; but you've given me something far more dangerous, a lot of knowlege and no experience to temper it with. I believe I'm here so that we can rectify that." he laughed and conceded that perhaps I had the better point... I include this anecdote, because I do get the impression that many of us on this forum suffer from just that, more information than they can intelligently apply; it's a problem of the modern age, rather than being starved for information, we're treading water trying not do drown in it.

In a related vein I think G S Haydon makes a valid point talking about how the work you do and the training you received acts as a prism for your view of the subject... I enjoy working with hand tools, but I still see things and instinctively think about how you could optimise the process to suit making masses of identical ones; I'm never going to fully escape that background.

 

[G S Haydon]

"I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools. "

=D>

Sadly though I think he might be on the way to sitting on a pedestal too. Although like I have said if you distill the posts he makes there is a valid point on woodwork and general joinery.

I think much of the concern about pedestals and veneration is misplaced. If someone finds a particular writer or teacher inspiring what's the harm? If someone enjoys buying a particular tool is that a problem? Sure I would agree that thinking your and inferior woodworker because you plane did not cost £250.00 is foolish but that's not the fault of a tool maker, it's down to us.

It's good to have a counter view, a different perspective, but often it becomes rude, unhelpful and confusing. This does more damage than any tool maker or assumed pedestal sitter ever did.

 

[Jacob]

........ I enjoy working with hand tools, but I still see things and instinctively think about how you could optimise the process to suit making masses of identical ones......

When hand tool were the main means of production of wooden things generally they were "making masses of identical ones". Thats what makes "ordinary" stuff so interesting - the pressure to produce meant optimisation of every detail - often seen in DTs where there can be all sorts of little flourishes resulting from a high speed approach.
The carefully crafted one-off is a bit of a romantic ideal. Making ten of them is more interesting in my opinion, and you can expect the last one to be an improvement on the first, as problems get solved and details rationalised.
So yes you should be looking at optimising the process.

 

[woodbrains]

Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
Gill wasn't the only artist/craftsman who was a *** crazed perv, by a long chalk. Not that that's an excuse but he was relatively harmless compared to others. Even poor old Lowry is getting the finger of suspicion lately.

PS I think Gill would be entertained by "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" - he was not too happy with arts n crafts nonsense (except his own) and was working towards something else. He should have gone abroad. Bauhaus would have sorted him out!

Hello,

Eric Gill was a ********* and a rapist, even 'experimenting' with his dog. How this makes him relatively harmless compared to others, I do not know. I would not moralise about his work, I'm not a prude.

Since he is dead, we'll never know, but since he was a graphic artist and wood print maker, I think he would know exactly what I mean about the grain graphic being integral to the work.

Yes tools should be used for cutting wood, but not nails, staples, embeddeg grit and dirt in an old pallet. You cannot pretend to to have some sort of warm fuzzy feeling about old tools and patently not care about their misuse.

I think there are many forthright posters here, but many are much better informed about what they say. Directness is no substitute for lack of knowledge.

Mike.

 

[barkwindjammer]

I thought the winter months (cabin fever) in here were a bit mental :?

 

[iNewbie]

I suspect that Jacob knows full well what he's doing and what he's talking about; I find his directness refreshing (though the repetition can be wearing...). I think (and I could be wrong here, but i'd be willing to wager say... a round of beers, that I'm not) he objects to people being put on a pedestal and their thinking venerated, much as he objects to the veneration of tools.
.

Just a bit...

Never thought I'd see a Woodworkers Drive-by on a daily basis.

 

[G S Haydon]

Just did a read up on Mr Gill, disturbing and sad.

And to think, all this started with a post about a tenon saw.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Yes, a thread from a tenon saw which I bought, but still have not received. BOO.

But still not as sad as the antics of Eric Gill. Apart from the sculpture, which I like very much, but could understand why others mightn't he did design some of the most beautiful type faces ever, and probably encountered by everyone on a daily basis. This gives me the chills, I have to say.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Moralising again! Are you on some sort of crusade? The knights of St Jim? Mary Whitehouse lives?
Gill wasn't the only artist/craftsman who was a *** crazed perv, by a long chalk. Not that that's an excuse but he was relatively harmless compared to others. Even poor old Lowry is getting the finger of suspicion lately.

PS I think Gill would be entertained by "The grain graphic for instance is worked with, not ignored" - he was not too happy with arts n crafts nonsense (except his own) and was working towards something else. He should have gone abroad. Bauhaus would have sorted him out!

Hello,

Eric Gill was a ********* and a rapist, even 'experimenting' with his dog. How this makes him relatively harmless compared to others, I do not know.

It seems non of them complained, not even a bark from the dog, and you wonder how true it was.

I would not moralise about his work, I'm not a prude.

You are moralising left right and centre about everything - even how I use a rusty old saw!

..
Yes tools should be used for cutting wood, but not nails, staples, embeddeg grit and dirt in an old pallet. You cannot pretend to to have some sort of warm fuzzy feeling about old tools and patently not care about their misuse.

I wasn't misusing it. I avoided nails etc. I use it a lot - in preference to more modern saws - it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling! And it cuts nicely since I sharpened it.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello.

None of his victims complained; Jacob, do you realise what you just said? You are a reprehensible oaf. Words of suitable strength are not allowed on this forum to describe you.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Moralising again!
*** and woodwork don't mix. Why don't you just stick to lecturing us on the "correct" way to use a scrub plane etc. :lol:
Should there be a punishment tariff for woodworking misdemeanours perhaps? That should keep you going. Could be a sticky: "Woodbrain's Corrections Corner"

 

[RogerP]

......... Had been quietly watching it for days..........
Mike.

You may imagine that you've been quietly watching something but if you sell stuff the true extent of views and watchers is revealed. Most items I list get many watchers, often into three figures, of course only a few actually bid. Nothing you spot on eBay hasn't been seen by a great many others.

 

[bugbear]

...but not until I have my new workshop.

That's more like it!

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

What on earth is wrong with sawing up a bit of wood with a wood saw? That's what it's for isn't it? Or should I hang it on the wall and worship it?

Straw man, as ever. If I need to chop through a root when digging up a tree, I'm not going to be so stupid as to use my finest, carefully sharpened, felling axe. I'd use a lesser axe, or a mattock.

If you want to use a good saw on gritty timber, at least you'll get plenty of sharpening practise.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....
If you want to use a good saw on gritty timber, at least you'll get plenty of sharpening practise.

BugBear

True. The more you use (and sharpen) a saw the better you get at it - and the saw gets polished up nicely. They shouldn't be mothballed. I could use various other saws but then I'd have to sharpen them too so it makes no difference. BTW I didn't hit any nails or grit. I looked at where the nails and grit were and avoided them - a crafty trick I was taught by an ancient woodworking guru I found hiding in the woodshed. He said his name was Eric, and he had a very sexy dog with him.
I expect woodbrain will be along shortly to administer a spanking. :lol:

PS I'm a bit of an amateur at sharpening. It's good enough for me but wouldn't pass muster commercially. But it gets better - faster and easier, and using the saw not only tests what you have been doing but also gives you a chance to improve on the last attempt - and in the process you do some useful sawing. Win win!

 

[woodbrains]

......... Had been quietly watching it for days..........
Mike.

You may imagine that you've been quietly watching something but if you sell stuff the true extent of views and watchers is revealed. Most items I list get many watchers, often into three figures, of course only a few actually bid. Nothing you spot on eBay hasn't been seen by a great many others.

Yes, I know. I won the saw paid a fair price and am not unhappy. But there is a sort of unwritten agreement on these forums, that ebay finds are not publicised in case of clashes of interest. Whether it does any good or not, I don't know. Jacob probably wouldn't have bid on it , unless he was watching the saw prior to its mention. It seems some other ebay era were complaining about losses, not me.

Mike.

 

[RogerP]

Yes, I know. I won the saw paid a fair price and am not unhappy. But there is a sort of unwritten agreement on these forums, that ebay finds are not publicised in case of clashes of interest. Whether it does any good or not, I don't know. Jacob probably wouldn't have bid on it , unless he was watching the saw prior to its mention. It seems some other ebay era were complaining about losses, not me.

Mike.

Well done on winning the saw I agree, it's best not to publicise auctions before they finish.