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Having not really kept up to date with the forum for a while (many months really), the new layout has been a bit of a shock. It takes a bit of getting used to, for sure, but going by many of the comments over several posts it is the end of the world.
The degree of head-shaking, hand-wringing and petty criticism of a free service is beneath mature adults.
The colour scheme is different, and the layout is perhaps not as efficient with space. However, as a user, you will get used to it. I actually quite like the pale blue with white boxes.
I am quite sure that any initial niggles will be ironed out, and the mods/owner should be thanked, not derided, for providing this, again, free service.

Now, I have a backgammon board I have to finish for Christmas just gone so I had better stop adding to the grumpiness and make some more shavings :)

Adam
 
defsdoor":maxa4eiw said:
Example of wasted space due to MASSIVE margins..



I see you have an ad-blocker enabled.

The space that you do not like is for ads to be displayed in. Turn off the ad blocker and the space gets filled, keep the ad blocker enabled and you get the space.
It really is a simple choice and one that you alone can make.
 
Feel free to challenge or ignore as you see fit... it is a Sunday morning and i feel in the mood to muse...

I find myself with a fresh cup of tea and a few minutes to kill and thought i'd note my musings on website look and feel... my understanding from having some non-expert involvement in the process professionally, and running a few sites from a hobby perspective. I don't claim to be an expert and i am not attacking or defending the choices made here. But i do think there is a lot more to consider than many realise.

There is a lot of very serious research into how the human eyes and brain perceive and process text. Much of this goes back to the days of printed media, some of it is more contemporary and specialises in the interaction with a computer screen.

There is a reason why newspapers and most other professional printed media use columns - because it is recognised that scanning long lines of text is far more tiring and problematic to the human eye/brain than shorter lines. Add to that the fact that a LOT of modern display devices have a much larger aspect ratio (widescreen 16:9 rather than traditional 4:3... also phones in landscape mode) and are in general much larger (22 inch widescreen is now common compared to a 17" 4:3 screen a few years ago) which means IF the whole screen was used for text the line length would make it harder to scan and pick up the following line, and be much more tiring.

Try this simple test. Take a page of solid text in something like word and print it out twice. Once portrait onto A4 with 2.5cm borders and extra line spaces between paragraphs. Second Landscape onto A4 with no borders and no spacing. It very clearly becomes evident that the spacing, line length and general layout of the text has a significant bearing on its readability - especially over long periods of time.

EDIT : You'll notice for example that this post appears as a 'wall of text' with no breaks. This is because the forum software is stripping out out line spaces I am putting between paragraphs (a simple technique for breaking up large amounts of text into readable sections). I don't think it did this a day or two ago and it might be a response from the owner to the cries of 'too much wasted space'? Personally i find it less readable.END EDIT.

It has also been shown that the human eye finds it easier and more restful to read without significant other distractions (text and pictures) surrounding it. Hence a lot of modern print and website design that ensures there is a clear border around a specific set of text, often with a different soft contrasting background colour. Its a technique that has been demonstrated to unobtrusively demarcate separate subjects (or in our case posts), though the choice of colours used can be critical. Too much contrast is jarring and can be tiring.

The design and use of fonts is a long standing area of research too. The rule of thumb is that fonts with serifs (Times New Roman) were developed to be easier on the eye to read in large blocks of text. And fonts without serifs (helvetica, arial, verdana - which the forum text is similar to) were designed to be more eye catching and easier to read in smaller blocks of text. Again there are also aesthetic choices here, serif fonts are often seen to impart more authority and non serif fonts are considered more friendly and accessible. Interestingly one of the main reasons that early versions of windows and apple products used Helvetica and arial so much was because low resolution screens dont handle the detail required for a serif font anywhere near as crisply as a non serif font. Likewise there's a reason newspapers stick with serif fonts - because they have large blocks of text that need to be scanned easily and they want to be seen as authoritative. (Given the length of this post i'm thinking I would like a font change option, but i don't see this musing as 'authoritative' either!)

The issue of font colour is interesting too. On a modern high definition screen black text on a white background has been shown to be more stressful and tiring on the eyes than a less harsh grey on white. However older, lower resolution monitors struggle to show grey and white as crisply as black on white. Modern flat screens are also capable of much higher brightness and contrast than old Cathode Ray Tubes. And modern small format screens on new phones are brighter and sharper again. So a grey on white on a modern screen with optimal brightness looks a lot different to grey on white on an older, lower resolution less bright CRT. The adoption of grey text by many sites is an attempt to satisfy both requirements. Naturally there are a lot more than fifty shades of grey and some work in some circumstances and not in others.

Naturally there is also a large amount of personal preference, quality of eyesight and familiarity mixed into this and as with anything to do with the human brain there is no "one size fits all". but there are some very sound reasons behind why modern websites have some common elements to their look and feel.

The challenge for modern websites is the vast range of devices they need to serve, multiple browsers, dozens of versions of those browsers, thousands of screen sizes, aspect ratios and resolutions of screens not to mention the local adjustment of things like contrast and brightness, adblockersand other add-ons. Modern web coding using language extensions like "bootstrap" give a lot of flexibility to try and maintain a common look and feel for a site across all those variables. They aren't perfect, but they are a damned sight better than a "fixed" page layout - take it or leave it approach.

As to this website; its based on off the shelf forum software, where the heavy lifting and base code is provided as a package with a large amount of options for implementation. Some of those options will include colour and layout choices, but some of the structure and general style will be fixed. I do not know the details in this instance, but have worked with other similar packages in the past. I have zero knowledge of how much of the forum design is 'straight out of the box' or how much has been tweaked. I'd guess that the owners efforts have been focused on porting all of the existing material, memberships and such like into the new software without losing anything and ensuring that functionally it all works.

I am not for one moment suggesting that everything is perfect in the changes to this forum, nor am i attempting to attack or defend them. I'm simply musing that there are solid reasons behind most if not all of the design decisions.

Clearly the change has been more successful for some than others. A lot of that will depend on a user's personal situation, preference and familiarity. I am sure that there will be some things that will change and evolve based on feedback.

Tea finished... time to go fix my router....
 
The issue of font colour is interesting too. On a modern high definition screen black text on a white background has been shown to be more stressful and tiring on the eyes than a less harsh grey on white.

I think that would be caused by having the screen brightness set too high. The white background is sending out too much light, resulting in too much contrast if the text is black.

On my laptop and desktop monitor, both LCD, I adjust the brightness so that the white background is about the brightness of white paper.

EDIT
removing the space between paragraphs makes it harder to read!
 
JohnPW":3q8cgri9 said:
The issue of font colour is interesting too. On a modern high definition screen black text on a white background has been shown to be more stressful and tiring on the eyes than a less harsh grey on white.

I think that would be caused by having the screen brightness set too high. The white background is sending out too much light, resulting in too much contrast if the text is black.

On my laptop and desktop monitor, both LCD, I adjust the brightness so that the white background is about the brightness of white paper.

Agreed - there are a large number of factors. For example monitor manufacturers deliberately ship their monitors with contrast and brightness turned above optimum so that they stand out in shops. Same for TV manufacturers. I suspect that many/most dont then re-adjust. Another variable in why things look different in different places...
 
JohnPW":em33pmfe said:
removing the space between paragraphs makes it harder to read!

+1

And also write!

It's especially tricky for a site like this where you often need a series of bullet point instructions on how to do something. Without paragraph spacings it just looks a bit of a mess.
 
defsdoor":1ynf63vl said:
Note to site admins - in the .container style for all breakpoints, changing the width from the absolute values to 100% makes things lovely.

Note to users - if you use firefox you can add an override to this style in your userContent.css file -

@-moz-document domain(ukworkshop.co.uk) {
div.container { width: 100% !important; }
}

Silly question - but where is this file? I can't find it on my Windows 10 pc running Firefox Quantum.

Thanks

Misterfish
 
defsdoor":39ajjtjx said:
Note to site admins - in the .container style for all breakpoints, changing the width from the absolute values to 100% makes things lovely.

Note to users - if you use firefox you can add an override to this style in your userContent.css file -

@-moz-document domain(ukworkshop.co.uk) {
div.container { width: 100% !important; }
}
Well you learn something everyday, hopefully anyway. Thank you for that defsdoor, I'm off to play with other possible settings.
xy
 
There's a lot of good sense in what Brandlin wrote.

To add yet another layer of complexity:

He has pointed out that much is decided in the overall discussion board software - I think in our case it is still PHP BB. A quick glance at the PHP BB site shows that there are hundreds of different styles that can be applied to the basic code, to make your forum look different from others using the same underlying software.

Then there are local implementation decisions about which options to pick - decisions taken, I assume, by Charley - some of which have already been changed in response to our comments.

And there are the differences caused by our choices of device and browser software.

But what may be less well known is that within our browsers, there are often built-in choices designed for us to use. Often, these will be intended to help people with less acute vision than the majority. Here's just one example. If you use Firefox, have a look at "reading mode". It strips out all the active content and gives you just plain black text. You'll find it on the View menu or by pressing Ctrl+Alt+R.

reading mode.JPG


Ok, there is white space, but the number of words to a line (what typographers call the "measure") is much better and more readable.
 

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AndyT":3edmr10b said:
There's a lot of good sense in what Brandlin wrote.

Dear lord... i must stop posting immediately if i am making sense... its all down hill from here... ! :D
 
Well I would be leaving too as the site colours are far too harsh on the eyes but cannot find a way to delete my membership so will just log out and not return
 
Garno":1pmmx8yu said:
defsdoor":1pmmx8yu said:
Example of wasted space due to MASSIVE margins..



I see you have an ad-blocker enabled.

The space that you do not like is for ads to be displayed in. Turn off the ad blocker and the space gets filled, keep the ad blocker enabled and you get the space.
It really is a simple choice and one that you alone can make.

No. The adverts are of fixed size. The css has breakpoints for different screen sizes and within that sets the width of .container to specific widths. In some breakpoints this width is significantly narrower than the breakpoint size. Witness this for yourself by simply changing the size of your browser window....

The adverts are inside the container div.

Setting the container width to 100% makes a significant difference to the margin beyond the advert spaces as well as on the left margin. Instead of getting on your high horse why not try it ? Oddly enough I do know what I am talking about when it comes to HTML/css.
 
I have, in the past, used tampermonkey user scripts to edit pages on the fly. I tried very briefly to write one for this page - I'm not bothered by the new layout, but, if the site is loosing members because of it, I thought I would give it a go.

Sadly my skill is not up to the job.

However... If one of you lot, with your css skill was to give it a go, I'm sure you could do it, and gift the script to anyone who was having real issues? I figure that could be a good thing?
 
defsdoor":38qdjwpx said:
Garno":38qdjwpx said:
defsdoor":38qdjwpx said:
Example of wasted space due to MASSIVE margins..



I see you have an ad-blocker enabled.

The space that you do not like is for ads to be displayed in. Turn off the ad blocker and the space gets filled, keep the ad blocker enabled and you get the space.
It really is a simple choice and one that you alone can make.

Instead of getting on your high horse why not try it ? Oddly enough I do know what I am talking about when it comes to HTML/css.

What's with the aggression I was only trying to help.
 
Garno":cw4q2jcy said:
What's with the aggression I was only trying to help.

Sorry - at first read it sounded like you were telling me that it was all my own fault ;)

Anyway - here are some examples -
Breakpoint driven absolute widths -
badmargin.jpg


Widths simply set to 100% -
goodmargin.jpg


Breakpoint driven absolute widths -
badmargin2.jpg


Widths simply set to 100% -
goodmargin2.jpg


I've applied this locally so I'm happy with it - apart from when I view on my tablet.

I will gladly help if needed to modify the site css - I'm qualified ;)
 

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That would be a huge mistake. As i noted in my long post above, there are very good reasons why long lines of text spanning the whole page are harder to read and more tiring, and why most modern websites use shorter lines with greater demarcation around text blocks.

Naturally if that's how you personally want to view your layout then that's your prerogative to edit your view as you see fit. But altering the whole site to the width format you are showing would be a a backwards step.
 
Well that is all clearly in your humble opinion. The old format took full advantage of the full page width (it wasn't a responsive site and was a pretty standard old-style phpbb layout). I don't see anyone else proclaiming the new margins (1/3 of the entire page width in some views) are a godsend.
And I'm not advocating removing the margins completely - even with the container width set to 100% there are still margins. I would just rather see more content on a single page and the massive margins at some breakpoints result in only 4-5 topics being visible in some occasions.

Look at this for example -
badbad.jpg


It's ridiculous.
 

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I'm not a prolific poster, but I do know which I find easier to read when I do visit. The pale blue/gray boxes and text are far more restful to read, also aides readability for those that suffer from dyslexia as the use of pale backgrounds has has been known about for donkeys years.

So, +1 for as it is now. All the best.....................dom

Ps both forums that I belong to that changed to Tapatalk have had their fair share of problems, many of which seem to be more major than our choice of colour and line width, so it could be a whole lot worse for us all. I think most of us are at an age where we're not comfortable with change but sometimes change is as good as a rest.
 
defsdoor":1fl7djuw said:
Well that is all clearly in your humble opinion.

Except its all pretty well researched evidence based and also industry standard for design.
But thats ok, you know best.
Just because you shout louder and longer doesn't make you right.
 

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