Sorby Ultima vs Munro tool

[duncanh]

I was asked in another thread why I'd chosen the Ultima (medium version) over the Munro (original, large version). Well I actually didn't, I chose both . Here's why, with a few thoughts on each.

I've had the Munro for about 4 years now but it always had a few shortcomings for me-
1) it's sometimes difficult to adjust the cutter shield to take exactly size of cut you want. When going in for a final finishing cut you want to set it so it takes a minimal shaving but I always found this a bit hit and miss to get right. I sometimes end up taking too little, resetting and then taking too much.
2) my Munro is one of the original ones with the off-set head and I found it difficult cutting across the bottom of the form I'm hollowing. This is probably easier with the new head and I was able to improve things a little by grinding a tiny amount of the cutter shield on mine but, but I usually end up using a scraper.
3) the bar diameter on the Munro is only 1/2" and vibrates when you start doing deeper hollowing. I got round this by mounting the head on a 3/4" bar used without an end handle and (but with the side handle from the Sorby Slicer) but it was cumbersome to use.

The reasons I considered the Ultima are that it address all those problems-
1) the cutter shield can be finely adjusted using the knurled ring just behind the cutter head
2) the cutter can easily be set to cut on the end
3) the bar is thicker
4) the long handle if great and well thought out - I can easily add a side handle (can be bought but I discovered that the stem from my Sorby modular rest has the same thread ). If I feel the need I can add weight inside the end handle (screwed in to the back of the handle end). I can also add extensions to the handle if need be. The handle comes with several sleeves allowing me to use it on regular round tools.
5) I saw the Ultima demoed by Sorby at our club the weekend before Harrogate and liked it. The head has a bevel on the back of it so in theory it's possible to rub the bevel and get a good finish.

I used the Ultima for the first time yesterday and here are my thoughts after about 2 hours use (in no particular order)-
1) It can take big cuts and you need to be careful how you set the cutter shield. Big cuts really pull the cutter into the wood.
2) It was a little tricky, despite the ring adjuster, to get the right depth of cut.
3) When cutting well the shavings exit the cutter and get ejected very cleanly. Very similar to the Munro but with slightly different trajectory. Not sure if one trajectory is better than the other.
4) It didn't always cut well and the cutter and shield were a little prone to getting clogged with debris.
5) Rubbing the bevel does work but I seemed to get vibration in the head fairly quickly. I just need to find the right amount of pressure to apply.
6) The 2 allen screws controlling the shield have their heads on the top which means they get shavings in them that should be cleared before you adjust them. I queried Sorby on this when I bought it and suggested that it might have been better to orientate them the other way up (it was a specific design feature of the Munro) and they laughed and said to just clean them.
7) The straight bar has a thicker section at the end where the cutter is mounted and this makes it impossible to get the rest right up close to the entry to the form and to cut there. This probably isn't too much of a problem and I just need to get used to it.
8 ) Having a side handle is great, and works really well.


Obviously I'm comparing several years of Munro tool use against 2 hours of Ultima use, which is a little unfair, but then that's all I've got for comparison.
I'll try to keep this updated whilst I continue to use the 2 tools.
Ultimately I'm expecting to sell the Munro.

 

[CHJ]

Thanks for that Duncan, good to get a true comparison from a user, will be interesting to see how and if you settle down with it long term, like everything else 'new on the block' there's usually for's and against's.
I guess it's up to each individual which they are happy, or at least prepared to live with.

 

[frugal]

I will be interested to see the long term outcome of this comparison. Pretty much all of the other initial views on the Sorby was that it was a bit more clunky and not as refined as the Munro. It is interesting to see the opposite opinion.

 

[Blister]

Duncan

Thanks for the review , it made a good read , I await with interest the reply's

However , one question for you

Was you turning dry or wet timber ?

I have only ever seen Rolly Munro turn wet wood and that is like turning butter

Whenever I do deep hollowing / hollowing with dry wood , all my tool cutter tips eventually block up with dry shavings regardless of the makers name

Personally I think most of these types of tools are designed for wet wood use :wink:

 

[duncanh]

Duncan

Thanks for the review , it made a good read , I await with interest the reply's

However , one question for you

Was you turning dry or wet timber ?

I have only ever seen Rolly Munro turn wet wood and that is like turning butter

Whenever I do deep hollowing / hollowing with dry wood , all my tool cutter tips eventually block up with dry shavings regardless of the makers name

Personally I think most of these types of tools are designed for wet wood use :wink:

I was turning wet-ish oak yesterday and today. Most of my recent hollowing has been wet or part wet. When I hollow dry stuff I find the cutter clogs on the Munro, but it sometimes does with wet wood as well, it just depends on the wood - alder often does when wet, sycamore generally doesn't.

From todays turning the Ultima didn't seem to be creating as long a shaving as the Munro. Maybe that's an indication that it's not cutting as well. Maybe not.

Something I noticed today - the tools actually use the same diameter bar. Not sure why I thought the Ultima was thicker, but looks as though one of my reasons for getting it wasn't met. Oh well.

 

[TobyB]

I think you might be right ... I have a woodcut pro-forme, which seems a similar sort of device. They describe it as a tool for "end-grain hollowing". I have found it good for that, but struggled with one very hard bit of old dry mahogany (or teak ... something dark, very dense and hard I found in a reclamation yard) ... e-mailed Phil Irons, and he replied it's a tool for primarily for greenwood - for dry wood he advised scraper-type cutters.

I am going down to Stratford on Thursday to spend a couple of days learning how to use it (well, how he makes hollow forms) ... (this isn't a gloat, honest!) ... he suggested I bring the Kelton scrapers I also have as he'd like to compare them ... I will report back ...

 

[Paul.J]

Good review Duncan
I sold my Munro recently as i just could not get on with it,after giving it a good go for quite a while.
I then saw the Woodcut Pro forme been used at one of the shows and it looked really good,with very little effort been used to get a good cut.
So i decided to give it a go meself and i really like it.
I can feel the shape better inside the vessel,each bump,and i find the cutter easier to adjust on the woodcut,with just one allen screw and a decent sized nut.
But i did struggle when i was cutting some Yew.Had to use the Jamieson rig to finish off.
I also phoned Phil Irons and asked for advice and was told that he prefers to use the tool on white woods such as Sycamore,Ash,and Spalted timbers.
Which when i did cut Spalted Beech the tool was great.
I had no trouble with clogging at all on the Beech and the Yew,which i did get on the Munro tool.

 

[mark sanger]

Hi
Interesting to read about the Sorbey.

I can only comment on the Munro.

I now use mine on dry wood both end and cross grain. I do not have a problem with it clogging. After spending time with someone who uses it all the time I was told that it will only clog if the cutter is not set fine enough.

You do need to set it fine for dry wood about 1/4 of a mm so you can just feel the edge. This way any shavings left in the gap are so fine that they just get fed through without clogging.

In relation to the bounce coming from rubbing the bevel. It is my understanding that there is not a bevel to rub.

The angle on the lower part of the cutter is a clearance angle and if the cutting tip is presented in the correct position then the wood will come down onto the edge and it will cut with ease.

The main issue I get from people is that the tool bounces a lot. This is down to trying to push the holder below the cutter into the wood too hard like a bevel and this causes the bounce which will get worse the harder you fight it.

As I say the angle is for clearance and with the tip set properly it will cut dry or wet wood with ease.

Also again when cutting deep if the cutter is set fine and is cutting efficiently with the optimum presentation then you will not get any shaft flex/chatter.

I often cut 10 inches deep with my Munro on dry wood and do not have any problems.

 

[Mark Hancock]

Very interesting.

Just to clarify a few points.

First shielded hollowing tools like the Munro, Woodcut etc only clog if the depth of cut is set too big. It's simple logic really: the bigger the depth of cut, the thicker the shaving created, the stronger the shaving so it doesn't break as easily and so clogs; the smaller the depth of cut, the thinner the shaving, therefore the more fragile the shaving so it breaks easily and clears.

The Munro tools works well on wet and dry timber, cross grain and parallel grain, inside and outside a vessel/bowl. I just spent 3 days demonstrating at a show using very hard dry ash cross grain bowl blanks turning the outside and inside with just the Munro tool. Not my idea of fun as those that know me will understand but the Munro can do this.

Not sure where it was mentioned but you can with some hollowering tools get support for the cut by rotating the tool and rubbing the shield as you would a bevel. Hamlet noted this early on that is why the thickness of the shield was doubled and domed. With some you can also use the sides of the head rubbing to support the cut or even the outside edge of the cutter. The Munro is very good for this because of the slim design of the head and 180 degree movement that you get at all the joints (later model only).

The bouncing some have referred to may be due to variations in the timber ie hard and soft patches, different grain directions etc and is usually the result of what I call "white knuckle" turning. Holding the tool really tight and pushing it too hard into the timber. Also this achieves is that the cutter follows the uneven surface created and the problem gets worse. And eventually the turner will end up with problems with their elbow and shoulder. Too avoid this simple relax and hold the tool firmly on the tool rest and advance it in a controlled flowing manner into the wood. If high spots are created don't try and fight them, simple apply pressure down on the tool rest holding the tool steady so the cutter takes them off - let the tool and the lathe do the work not brute force

If anyone is in the area I'll be down at Classic Hand Tools this Friday and Saturday for one of their open days and you're welcome to come and have some hands on practical advice not just on the munro but on any issues you may have.

Mark

 

[George Foweraker]

Hi.

I have been using the Roly munro for several years and only have the version with a 16mm shaft which i frequantly hollow down to about 200mm through an 20mm hole.
I recently tried the Robert Sorby thing and found it to be over engineered and very bulky.
I found with the Sorby thing it was a struggle to work through anything less than a 40mm hole.


Regards George

 

[duncanh]

I agree with Mark about essential rubbing the bevel with the Munro by rotating it a little and using the shield as the bevel. It works well.

Something I noticed last night with the Ultima - the fine depth adjustment works well forwards and backwards but there is a little play from side to side and this can be inadvertently changed if you're not careful when adjusting. It's less than 1mm but does make a difference.

 

[Paul.J]

When i sold my Munro to Steve J,i showed him how to use it,just as i was told and tried to use the tool.
Steve took to it straight away so i really do think it was down to my own technique when trying to use it,which for some reason was wrong :?
I did also have difficulty in adjusting the cutter,but again that is/was just down to me.

 

[wizer]

Duncan thanks for posting this. I've only just seen it. I can't really add anything as Mark and Mark have summed up my findings with the Munro. I like the idea of the knurled adjustment knob on the ultima. But the Munro is perfect for what I do. Not had any problems with it so far.