Shoulder planes, which one?

[pe2dave]

I bought one quite cheap on ebay - might be an option if you're just trying them out?

 

[D_W]

There are four lines (one on each side) so sometimes random errors add up.

In fairness, I do make errors (as mentioned on alignment on the tenon, corrected on the cheeks).

And I am building things generally that go in my house with an occasional something for the neighborhood, so I've never been pushed to the point that I can't check squareness or have to speed through marks allowing squares to shift. I despise correcting tenon shoulders and will spend the extra time up front on checking dimensioned wood and double checking the marks.

 

[IWW]

anyone who doesn't make a small blunder or miss a cut slightly & never needs to finesse a few bits on any complex build has my utmost respect!

I can saw reasonably accurately & close to a line, the old cabinetmaker who mentored me used to differentiate "sawing to the line" & "splitting the line", depending on what the job required. I could once do either reasonably reliably, though no guarantes now my eyesight ain't what it uster be, but I can still mange "pretty close" by muscle-memory (on a good day). Sawed tenons are fine by me for a workbench or any utility item, but rarely good enough to my eye on a fine piece, the fit from a carefully-trimmed edge is usually streets ahead.

"Rough-cutting" & finessing the final fit has a long & honorable history in both wood & metal work, it's a time-honoured technique. Exactly how you finesse is up to you, there are different roads to Rome....

Cheers,
Ian

 

[TRITON]

78 good for shoulders too if sharp enough. A lot cheaper than a "shoulder" plane, and other uses too.

A rebate plane only has one side supported, a shoulder has two. So you cant really lay the 78 on its side for cutting in from both sides. This is the whole point of the shoulder plane being the design it is.

 

[Jacob]

A rebate plane only has one side supported, a shoulder has two. So you cant really lay the 78 on its side for cutting in from both sides.

Actually you can*, but cutting in from the opposite direction, or by turning the workpiece. Just as you would with a skew rebate plane. Not ideal, but non of them are, and it depends on the workpiece.
*n.b. without fence, depth stop, nicker, which are not really as useful as they look IMHO

This is the whole point of the shoulder plane being the design it is.

Same problem - you either reset the blade so it cuts on the other side (just a little tap), or reverse direction, or turn the workpiece.
Having said that I'll have a bash on the bench just to check it out!

 

[Jacob]

anyone who doesn't make a small blunder or miss a cut slightly & never needs to finesse a few bits on any complex build has my utmost respect!

I can saw reasonably accurately & close to a line, the old cabinetmaker who mentored me used to differentiate "sawing to the line" & "splitting the line", depending on what the job required. I could once do either reasonably reliably, though no guarantes now my eyesight ain't what it uster be, but I can still mange "pretty close" by muscle-memory (on a good day). Sawed tenons are fine by me for a workbench or any utility item, but rarely good enough to my eye on a fine piece, the fit from a carefully-trimmed edge is usually streets ahead.

"Rough-cutting" & finessing the final fit has a long & honorable history in both wood & metal work, it's a time-honoured technique. Exactly how you finesse is up to you, there are different roads to Rome....

Cheers,
Ian

Exactly. Science, engineering, statistics, craft technology; a lot about how to reduce error to a tolerable level or how to deal with it when it occurs, as it will.

 

[Jacob]

Actually you can*, but cutting in from the opposite direction, or by turning the workpiece. Just as you would with a skew rebate plane. Not ideal, but non of them are, and it depends on the workpiece.
*n.b. without fence, depth stop, nicker, which are not really as useful as they look IMHO

Same problem - you either reset the blade so it cuts on the other side (just a little tap), or reverse direction, or turn the workpiece.
Having said that I'll have a bash on the bench just to check it out!

Quick 10 minute bench test:
A rebate is easiest to start with the 78, thanks to the fence and nicker, but once started is much easier to continue with an old woody skewed rebate, which is very fast.
But you can start with the woody if you have to, using your thumb as the fence and then turn it to cut back to the marked line, once the wall is high enough.
A shoulder plane (073) not too good for rebates somehow, perhaps too heavy - in comparison the woody is a pleasure to use.
They all will trim a shoulder across the grain but the shoulder plane is better.
Effectively cutting angles is about 45º for each of them (shoulder is bevel up)*.
Nice to be reminded of how good the woody is - totally superior for rebating along the grain and very fast. Partly to do with the light weight but it also does a sort of "zip" cut and breaks/rolls the shavings as they come, leaving a pattern of fine nicked lines. You could take this off with a finishing pass.
If you wanted just one plane the woody is the out and out winner for rebates but the 78 is a good for general purposes. Beginning to think the 073 is a bit redundant.
PS this was on a longish piece (12") of redwood. A shortish piece of beech would be very different. The woody only works at speed - if you try to be slow and careful it's less good.
*PPS I've never seen the point of bevel up planes, except in the case of the block plane where you need the low profile so you can use it one handed. Bevel up doesn't feature in the back catalogue best sellers - so presumably nobody could see the point of them back then either. Are the new ones just novelty planes?

 

[Hornbeam]

I think this thread highlights how different tools work for different people and their individual approaches. I use a combination of power and hand tools so the shoulder plane may be used to fine trim a rebate or a groove cut with an electric router(side rebate for width) to get a really good fit. If I was working just with hand tools I might do it differently such as using the 078 for the rebate and a say and hand router for the groove. Both are right in their context

 

[hlvd]

Quick 10 minute bench test:
A rebate is easiest to start with the 78, thanks to the fence and nicker, but once started is much easier to continue with an old woody skewed rebate, which is very fast.
But you can start with the woody if you have to, using your thumb as the fence and then turn it to cut back to the marked line, once the wall is high enough.
A shoulder plane (073) not too good for rebates somehow, perhaps too heavy - in comparison the woody is a pleasure to use.
They all will trim a shoulder across the grain but the shoulder plane is better.
Effectively cutting angles is about 45º for each of them (shoulder is bevel up)*.
Nice to be reminded of how good the woody is - totally superior for rebating along the grain and very fast. Partly to do with the light weight but it also does a sort of "zip" cut and breaks/rolls the shavings as they come, leaving a pattern of fine nicked lines. You could take this off with a finishing pass.
If you wanted just one plane the woody is the out and out winner for rebates but the 78 is a good for general purposes. Beginning to think the 073 is a bit redundant.
PS this was on a longish piece (12") of redwood. A shortish piece of beech would be very different. The woody only works at speed - if you try to be slow and careful it's less good.
*PPS I've never seen the point of bevel up planes, except in the case of the block plane where you need the low profile so you can use it one handed. Bevel up doesn't feature in the back catalogue best sellers - so presumably nobody could see the point of them back then either. Are the new ones just novelty planes?

I’d always wanted an 073 since seeing them in Technical College in the Eighties.
I managed to buy one at a reasonable price through the classifieds in The Woodworker in the late Nineties and was a bit underwhelmed when I used it for the first time.
It’s a beast and too big for anything other than purpose made joinery.

I had the same reaction to a Record 2506 I purchased, practically unusable with either no shaving or one way too thick.

I sadly sold on the 073 but have slight regrets but have none for getting rid of the 2506.

 

[D_W]

anyone who doesn't make a small blunder or miss a cut slightly & never needs to finesse a few bits on any complex build has my utmost respect!

I can saw reasonably accurately & close to a line, the old cabinetmaker who mentored me used to differentiate "sawing to the line" & "splitting the line", depending on what the job required. I could once do either reasonably reliably, though no guarantes now my eyesight ain't what it uster be, but I can still mange "pretty close" by muscle-memory (on a good day). Sawed tenons are fine by me for a workbench or any utility item, but rarely good enough to my eye on a fine piece, the fit from a carefully-trimmed edge is usually streets ahead.

"Rough-cutting" & finessing the final fit has a long & honorable history in both wood & metal work, it's a time-honoured technique. Exactly how you finesse is up to you, there are different roads to Rome....

Cheers,
Ian

It's a little bit more accurate to say that the small blunders are less than will be hidden by typical glue/finish without leaving a visual line - and bias is made toward the show side of a mortise. Correcting shoulders gets fairly complicated - care ahead of time is far more efficient.

Haven't got a similar thought with cutting mortises and fitting tenon cheeks as there's typically some work there unless they're cut loose as a pair from the start. Not a fan of that.

 

[Jacob]

I’d always wanted an 073 since seeing them in Technical College in the Eighties.
I managed to buy one at a reasonable price through the classifieds in The Woodworker in the late Nineties and was a bit underwhelmed when I used it for the first time.
It’s a beast and too big for anything other than purpose made joinery.

I had the same reaction to a Record 2506 I purchased, practically unusable with either no shaving or one way too thick.

I sadly sold on the 073 but have slight regrets but have none for getting rid of the 2506.

Well yes there's a good case for blaming the tools. A lot of them are designed /produced speculatively and only time will tell if they are any use. If no use they still hang around the workshop making you feel guilty.

 

[niall Y]

I’d always wanted an 073 since seeing them in Technical College in the Eighties.
I managed to buy one at a reasonable price through the classifieds in The Woodworker in the late Nineties and was a bit underwhelmed when I used it for the first time.
It’s a beast and too big for anything other than purpose made joinery.

I had the same reaction to a Record 2506 I purchased, practically unusable with either no shaving or one way too thick.

I sadly sold on the 073 but have slight regrets but have none for getting rid of the 2506.

I have the Record 073,. It's a really useful plane to have - when you need it. But those instances are few and far between. I can always get really good wide shoulders on door tenons running them off the fence on a table saw - accurate, parallel and aligned every time.
I also have a side rebate plane - a copy of a Stanley. not the Record. It's beautifully made in bronze and is very versatile. I use it mainly for widening grooves, if they need to be relieved to fit a panel

 

[hlvd]

I have the Record 073,. It's a really useful plane to have - when you need it. But those instances are few and far between. I can always get really good wide shoulders on door tenons running them off the fence on a table saw - accurate, parallel and aligned every time.
I also have a side rebate plane - a copy of a Stanley. not the Record. It's beautifully made in bronze and is very versatile. I use it mainly for widening grooves, if they need to be relieved to fit a panel

I’ve still got a Stanley 93, Record 311 and a Record 041 but mainly use the 93 if needed.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have a large LN and a Preston, that's about 7/16". The Preston is a joy to use and just feels great in the hand. The large LN is a fine plane and even for the size & weight, it is not bad at all, but that Preston is perfection, at least in my eye.

 

[TRITON]

Quick 10 minute bench test:
A rebate is easiest to start with the 78

Right well, I think we're now all convinced that the Stanley No78 rebate plane is ideal for cutting rebates. Who'd have thought eh ? But i think I speak for everyone here to thank you for running this test.

Now to the question in hand. Trimming shoulders with a shoulder plane....

 

[Jacob]

Right well, I think we're now all convinced that the Stanley No78 rebate plane is ideal for cutting rebates. Who'd have thought eh ? But i think I speak for everyone here to thank you for running this test.

I didn't say that. The old woody was fastest and easiest to use. I'm not the first person to notice that!
78 is more general purpose, neither one thing nor the other but gets used a lot

Now to the question in hand. Trimming shoulders with a shoulder plane....

Opinion seems varied. Big shoulder plane for big shoulders, too clumsy for small ones.

OK I admit ten minutes isn't long but I am familiar with and have used them all at one time or another, so was interesting to try them side by side. More of a reminder than a test!

 

[Citracal]

Im looking to add a shoulder plane to my setup but just wondering which size would be best suited for all purpose work?

I strongly recommend you look at the Clifton 3110, it's a shoulder plane you can also use as a bullnose and chisel plane. Buy new or find a used one depends on how much you want to spend. If I didn't already have a shoulder plane that is the one I would be buying, two of the other Cabinetmakers in the shop have it and I'm very envious.

Just my own experience, I don't ever end up using my shoulder plane (medium veritas) on actual shoulders, most often I'm reaching for it when I need to flush in the inside of a mitre joint on a carcase or similar joint that has a slight step.

 

[D_W]

I strongly recommend you look at the Clifton 3110, it's a shoulder plane you can also use as a bullnose and chisel plane. Buy new or find a used one depends on how much you want to spend. If I didn't already have a shoulder plane that is the one I would be buying, two of the other Cabinetmakers in the shop have it and I'm very envious.

Just my own experience, I don't ever end up using my shoulder plane (medium veritas) on actual shoulders, most often I'm reaching for it when I need to flush in the inside of a mitre joint on a carcase or similar joint that has a slight step.

Good bullnose plane can be useful sometimes, though. I've never used any of the "transformer" style shoulder planes, but the availability of a bullnose would be nice to have if it comes in the same package.

 

[Jacob]

Quick 10 minute bench test:
A rebate is easiest to start with the 78, thanks to the fence and nicker, but once started is much easier to continue with an old woody skewed rebate, which is very fast.
But you can start with the woody if you have to, using your thumb as the fence and then turn it to cut back to the marked line, once the wall is high enough.
A shoulder plane (073) not too good for rebates somehow, perhaps too heavy - in comparison the woody is a pleasure to use.
They all will trim a shoulder across the grain but the shoulder plane is better.
Effectively cutting angles is about 45º for each of them (shoulder is bevel up)*.
Nice to be reminded of how good the woody is - totally superior for rebating along the grain and very fast. Partly to do with the light weight but it also does a sort of "zip" cut and breaks/rolls the shavings as they come, leaving a pattern of fine nicked lines. You could take this off with a finishing pass.
If you wanted just one plane the woody is the out and out winner for rebates but the 78 is a good for general purposes. Beginning to think the 073 is a bit redundant.
PS this was on a longish piece (12") of redwood. A shortish piece of beech would be very different. The woody only works at speed - if you try to be slow and careful it's less good.
*PPS I've never seen the point of bevel up planes, except in the case of the block plane where you need the low profile so you can use it one handed. Bevel up doesn't feature in the back catalogue best sellers - so presumably nobody could see the point of them back then either. Are the new ones just novelty planes?

Just revisiting this - have had to cut some rebates in real world scenario (two cupboard doors), so did it without the spindle moulder.
78 with nicker is useless though the nicker could be modified and improved if anybody really wanted to use them. I don't see the need.
But without nicker and with fence 78 is excellent except it drifts off the line away from the wall.
But that's OK you get a better finish to the wall anyway, with an 032 or 311 sideways the other way.
But to remove stuff fast the old woody is tops by far, with fine finishing adjusting if necessary with the 032.
They make a very useful trio!

 

[Jameshow]

78 posts I think that confirms it!!!