Shoulder planes, which one?
- Thread starter nosuchhounds
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pe2dave
Established Member
Let's agree to differ on this Derek? Saw, chisel and router plane work for me.
rogxwhit
Established Member
Inches, old chap. ;-) Inches are allowed, it's just cm that are OUTLAWED!
Too much set up, mess and noise.
I also assumed you mean for cheeks as that's what I use my Stanley 71 for (and very good it is to with veritas cutters); I just use a sharp chisel for shoulders..
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pe2dave
Established Member
A minute to set up two *hand* routers, one to final depth, one to work down to final? No mess, no electic either
A minute to set up two *hand* routers, one to final depth, one to work down to final? No mess, no electic either
I see, I thought you meant for a shoulder.A minute to set up two *hand* routers, one to final depth, one to work down to final? No mess, no electic either
A hand router works fine on a short tenon.
WideningGyre
Established Member
Most shoulders don't fit tightly to the morticed workpiece not because of bad sawing or chiseling of the tenoned workpiece, but because the mortice has been chopped slightly out of plumb. When this happens, one shoulder won't fit tightly. If you trim the other shoulder, then you have sealed the fate of the tenoned piece running off the morticed piece at an undesired angle. Your frame, apron-to-leg assembly, or whatever will be out of square and you'll have a mess on your hands and not realize exactly why.
It has nothing to do with what tool you should use to fix the shoulder. The mortise is the problem.
Slightly more esoteric -- this is why a joined chair should also have its tenon angled rather than chopping the mortise at an angle. If you chop the tenon square to the face of the leg, and angle the tenon, if the resulting angle the seat rail exits the leg is incorrect then you're almost assured of knowing the mortise is a little off, which they almost always are. The person who can chop a perfect mortise without ever deviating even one degree is a rare bird, or a liar, most likely the the latter.
It has nothing to do with what tool you should use to fix the shoulder. The mortise is the problem.
Slightly more esoteric -- this is why a joined chair should also have its tenon angled rather than chopping the mortise at an angle. If you chop the tenon square to the face of the leg, and angle the tenon, if the resulting angle the seat rail exits the leg is incorrect then you're almost assured of knowing the mortise is a little off, which they almost always are. The person who can chop a perfect mortise without ever deviating even one degree is a rare bird, or a liar, most likely the the latter.
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pe2dave
Established Member
But... Paul Sellers uses a Z shaped aid, to slide the chisel along, ensuring
a clean right angle 'square' cut.
OK, I know you all don't want to know that.
(It works for me, honest)
a clean right angle 'square' cut.
OK, I know you all don't want to know that.
(It works for me, honest)
WideningGyre
Established Member
Even jigged, you can easily be a little off. I've seen the Sellers video and his chisel doesn't maintain registration against the guide the whole way down. It doesn't take much to be off. And the longer the workpiece (think table apron), the more the problem is magnified. The fix isn't sweating bullets while chopping the mortise, jigging and all of that, but in a twenty second paring fix at the bottom of the mortise after the fit has been tested. If the back shoulder won't show, you can cut it back, and if for example a table won't have drawers, then the base going up a little out of square will never be noticed when the top goes on.
The point of all of this is to tick off one less baffling error that somebody might run into.
Otherwise, feel free to resume the tool shopping channel.
Tony Zaffuto
Established Member
But what does Sellers use to sharpen his chisel? Maybe it was done out of square? What jig did he use? Was his stone dished? Was his stone flat?
I’m very bewildered!
I’m very bewildered!
I don't know the viability of floats in terms of what's available there, but will mention here that I've used a plane bed float far more on tenon cheeks than I've ever used one on a plane bed. And I've made a lot of plane beds - the bed float just isn't quite the right tool for them, but the theory of spontaneous junk comes into play. That is, if you have enough junk around, some will spring to life and become useful.
The float is kind of point and shoot and can move material quickly, or you can place a thumb on it on an already true (but slightly thick) tenon and push it under the thumb and literally know what thickness it will take off with each stroke.
The float is kind of point and shoot and can move material quickly, or you can place a thumb on it on an already true (but slightly thick) tenon and push it under the thumb and literally know what thickness it will take off with each stroke.
pe2dave
Established Member
I'm sure you're more accurate freehand.
I'm not and find it very helpful.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Er, how could this happen? I mark up both ends of through mortices with mortice gauge from the face side and then cut from both sides either by machine or by hand, to meet in the middle.
Can't say they are ever out of plumb.
Blind mortices will still come out dead plumb on the machine but I suppose hand cutting could wander - but you have to sight from the end, not from the side.
Can't see a role for a jig here, I'll have to have a look at Seller's vid.
My probs are always with the shoulders.
PS had a look at the vid
Not impressed!
I'd use a proper OBM chisel for starters - designed for the job, a little bevel edge chisel will steer itself all over the place. Work to gauge marks and sight from the end, either workpiece on end of bench or in the trad position sitting astride the workpiece on a saw stool.
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
The first probably four dozen tenons I made, I did things like that - too heavy of a cut moving baselines around, connecting a line here or there when stock wasn't quite right, and after the crapshoot that ensued, I always checked the stock and the marking later (and the cut depth of the chisel on the shoulder, paring or malleting) and that went away.
Either that, or the odd time the gap was on the inside of a cabinet, I let the glue fill it. I don't remember ever planing across a tenon shoulder and have never used a machine to cut them where wobble or wonder, or worked turned over could affect that.
It was always faster to double check the stock squareness and slow down on the critical show cuts.
I've used the float to fix plumb more than once, but that takes little time and if the work is in the vise and the error to the near side of you, the float doesn't care and the work doesn't need to leave the vise.
There's no way fixing the errors in the first several dozen was faster than figuring out how to avoid them - slowing down sawing the shoulders and being particular if they aren't straight off the saw to leave the waste consistent and looking twice.
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
I think your question has been bypassed by some firm opinions on how woodwork “should” be done. I’m a believer that most things can be done in more than one way.
All purpose is quite a broad phrase and probably means different things to different people. I have the LN small shoulder plane which I understand is pretty much the same as the Clifton but has an adjustable mouth. It’s great for what I need/make.
I remember when I bought it being unsure what to go for so I waited for the North of England woodworking show and bought after taking a good look at Clifton, LN and Veritas courtesy of Classic Hand Tools. From memory they had the full LN and Veritas ranges available to try and brought the Clifton 3110 for me to look at. If you can get there later this year it may be worth dropping them a line to ask what they will have available to try.
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