Shed build

[Paul200]

Depending on the price I expect both could be rebuilt to your sizes for a fraction of the cost of new. Have a good look and see if you think they can be taken apart (or if it's 'sight unseen' ask the question).

Cheers

Paul

PS. Or change the size of your door opening??

 

[Woodchips2]

Hi Kev
If the price was right I'd consider modifying them but I'm a cheapskate :lol: Could you cut 3" off the top and bottom and still leave enough room so the ledges don't foul the door frame?

I'd keep one door at 2'6" and reduce the other to 1'6" aiming to have the wider leaf for general entry and exit. If you had two equal widths 2'0" isn't a very wide door if you are carrying stuff in and out.

Just as an aside but why did you make the door opening 6'0" high? It's OK for shorties like me but a pain in the head if you have tall visitors :roll:

Regards Keith

 

[KevB]

Thanks guys for the speedy advice.

I think the opening is actually over 6 feet Keith, I can't remember exactly what it is..though I'm only 5.9 and I probably won't have many visitors taking an interest in my shed haha :mrgreen: Yeah that's what I'm thinking mate, a big door and smaller one, that way I only have to fully modify one of the doors.

I could change the door opening Paul, it's definitely an option..though knowing my luck i'd probably run into problems taking things out and re-arranging them :roll:

They only £15 for the pair and I may go have a look at them this weekend, if my dads up for bringing his van over.

I have a few questions about the membrane..

With the floor, could I lay it straight onto the framework, sandwiching the floor boards on top? With regards to insulating the floor, I can't decide yet as I can't see it being a cheap option . Somebody was selling something like 80 square meters of double foiled bubblewrap for £30, I wish I had of bought it now and it would at least have been something to put in the floor (hammer)

Same with the roof - rafters, dpm, boards?

If I were to buy the 15x4 meter dpm from toolstation, how should I start wrapping the shed with it? Should I roll it up and over the roof and down the other side? Or wrap it around the walls as far as it'll go? Shed being 5x2.8 meters. Hmm actually I think that's a stupid question now that I think about it (hammer) I wouldn't be able to wrap it over the roof as the overhanging rafters would be in the way. Need to put some more thought into this..you can probably tell i'm trying to think of the cheapest way to cover it all ha

 

[Paul200]

Hi Kev

Not sure about bubblewrap under floors - will the bubbles burst? Not sure - maybe someone else knows.

If you're going to insulate your shed walls then the OSB panels on the inside will be sufficient for an impermeable barrier. You could install a plastic membrane immediately behind the OSB but this would be overkill. If insulating then you will need a breather membrane (not DPM) wrapped around the outside of the walls, over the insulation, and then battens over that to take the cladding material. This gives an air gap to ventilate the cladding. Check out Mike Garnham's workshop build - there are sectional drawings near the beginning that show the order of things.

There are loads of different breather membranes on the market. The one everyone's heard of is Tyvek - I used something called Ventia on my Sitooterie. This can also be used as a roofing membrane.

A DPM below your floor is a good idea, although I'm not sure it's totally necessary on a suspended floor - others could help here perhaps? I packed polystyrene insulation between my floor joists before I laid a DPM and the OSB but in my case I needed a DPM for a barrier between the decking and the floor, which share the same joists. If you do put a DPM down don't do it until your roof is on - if it rains you end up with a paddling pool full of OSB and no way for it to drain! (Don't ask me how I know this :? )

Hope this helps. You could do far worse than to take good long look at Mike's workshop WIP - I found it invaluable.

Cheers

Paul

 

[KevB]

Hi Kev

Not sure about bubblewrap under floors - will the bubbles burst? Not sure - maybe someone else knows.

If you're going to insulate your shed walls then the OSB panels on the inside will be sufficient for an impermeable barrier. You could install a plastic membrane immediately behind the OSB but this would be overkill. If insulating then you will need a breather membrane (not DPM) wrapped around the outside of the walls, over the insulation, and then battens over that to take the cladding material. This gives an air gap to ventilate the cladding. Check out Mike Garnham's workshop build - there are sectional drawings near the beginning that show the order of things.

There are loads of different breather membranes on the market. The one everyone's heard of is Tyvek - I used something called Ventia on my Sitooterie. This can also be used as a roofing membrane.

A DPM below your floor is a good idea, although I'm not sure it's totally necessary on a suspended floor - others could help here perhaps? I packed polystyrene insulation between my floor joists before I laid a DPM and the OSB but in my case I needed a DPM for a barrier between the decking and the floor, which share the same joists. If you do put a DPM down don't do it until your roof is on - if it rains you end up with a paddling pool full of OSB and no way for it to drain! (Don't ask me how I know this :? )

Hope this helps. You could do far worse than to take good long look at Mike's workshop WIP - I found it invaluable.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul

I was thinking maybe pin it inside the frame somehow? Though I think the guy has sold it now (hammer)

Ok mate, i'll check out those membranes you mention, with any luck i'll find a good deal on something. Say I used kingspan type insulation, do you think there's another way to bypass the battern/membrane? Could I fix some sort of stops to the insides of the studs to stop the insulation being pushed too far in and up against the cladding? Would this in turn leave me the air gap I need? Or would I still need to use the membrane to protect the insulation? I don't think I mind using the batten/membrane idea if it turns out to be quite critical. For what the shed is and how little I will probably use it (with all these babies haha)..i'm trying to weigh up the cost versus how far to go with this shed..

Here's a few pics of the insulation I've managed to scavenge so far.. :mrgreen:

I got those sheets free. They are damaged but useable I think.

I very nice chap has just dropped these offcuts off for me. I payed £20 for them which I'm very happy about as there are quite a few and I should be able to fill a fair few studs with them..or maybe even towards the floor.

I'm hoping to crack on with some more work on Saturday and will post some more pics. Hope i'm not boring you guys with my cheapskate approach to shed building :mrgreen:

 

[Paul200]

I've wondered about just using foil wrapped insulation with no membrane myself. A few strategically placed screws would stop it moving out of place and give the cladding room to breath. I suppose there's the danger of moisture getting in behind the insulation and having nowhere to go - worth the risk? You would need to somehow ventilate the ventilation area though - with the cladding simply nailed directly onto the frame you create a sealed unit. I've got this problem - I'm retro-fitting insulation to a cheap and nasty shed. I drilled lots of holes along the top and bottom of the cladding and fixed bug mesh on the inside of them, but the breather membrane sits on the bottom rail of the frame - if any moisture runs down there's nowhere for it to go. It's just a shed so I'm taking the risk but it's not ideal and you have the option of doing it properly - providing you can find the battens at the right price ;-)

 

[Paul200]

Oh, and I'm not bored! I love a challenge. And it's called recycling (which is to be applauded) - not cheapskate

 

[KevB]

I've wondered about just using foil wrapped insulation with no membrane myself. A few strategically placed screws would stop it moving out of place and give the cladding room to breath. I suppose there's the danger of moisture getting in behind the insulation and having nowhere to go - worth the risk? You would need to somehow ventilate the ventilation area though - with the cladding simply nailed directly onto the frame you create a sealed unit. I've got this problem - I'm retro-fitting insulation to a cheap and nasty shed. I drilled lots of holes along the top and bottom of the cladding and fixed bug mesh on the inside of them, but the breather membrane sits on the bottom rail of the frame - if any moisture runs down there's nowhere for it to go. It's just a shed so I'm taking the risk but it's not ideal and you have the option of doing it properly - providing you can find the battens at the right price ;-)

Hi mate

I was thinking about making some small L shaped galv brackets at work, then fixing them in and around every stud/noggin. If the insulation was 75mm thick max, i'd fix the brackets at that depth, then push the insulation up against them, leaving a 25mm gap behind for some air to move around. Then fix the outer cladding straight to the frame. Like you say though, this may not be enough to allow sufficient ventilation..

This way, i'd do away with the breathable membrane which i'm thinking will cost too much on my budget. Unless something comes up on gumtree :roll:

As of the kingspan I've collected so far, I reckon I'm close to having enough to do the floor. (using the galv bracket idea). Do you think this would be a good idea to keep it for the floor rather than parts of the walls?

I'm hoping to have the walls stood up and fixed together over the Christmas, as well as the rafters in place. Meaning I have to make a decision on whether or not the cladding is fixed straight to the framework :roll: The roof as well, I was going to double up that osb board I bought, which would take it to 18mm, then felt on top of that. The rubber stuff is too expensive from what I can see. Would you agree Paul that the way I want to fix the cladding and the roof will probably do the job for at least a few years or is it too difficult to predict? haha :mrgreen:

As soon as I have a certain plan with the cladding and roof, then I can pretty much make it water tight enough to get the floor in etc..

The other way is to cover the whole shed in membrane and add battens, as we've discussed. Allowing me to fill the walls with a mix of cheaper rockwool and/or whatever kingspan I can collect..

Hmm it's quite a challenge working to a tight budget, but i'm sure i'll eventually end up with a shed i'm happy with :mrgreen:

Thanks mate, I hope it helps other to take a few ideas when on a budget, especially the pallet wood if you can get hold of any decent ones

 

[Paul200]

Kev - can I just say - if I wasn't so far away I'd be there giving you a hand. Always up for helping someone who's willing to give it a go despite having no experience (with all respect).

Your roof plan sounds good - I'm going to do the same thing with my shed roof. No ventilation gap - the felt keeps the moisture out, in my opinion, providing you maintain it.

Your wall brackets also sound OK. So long as there's a gap of some kind between the insulation and the cladding that's half the battle. Like I said earlier, it's not ideal but it's making the best of what's available.

If it was me I would insulate the walls and ceiling before worrying about the floor. But that's me. I'm no scientist but I think the air blowing around the building is more likely to lower the temperature than the ground is. Your shout though (and I'm open to being shown the way by someone who knows about these things).

Interesting that your post has had over 1900 people look but very few contributions. Either you've got it spot on mate - or we're buggered :lol:

 

[KevB]

Hi guys

Haha yeah Paul it's quite a distance to travel :mrgreen: Luckily enough my dad has been feeling better lately and came to lend a hand today.

Yeah the good thing about the galv brackets is I can get them made free, either from mine or my brothers work. I may still go down the membrane/batten route..though will decide closer to the time. I had a quick look on ebay for breathable membranes and I guess they aren't overly expensive, but still an added expense to what is originally a low budget project.

Ok that sounds good about the insulation. I do prefer to put it in the walls, hopefully i'll be able to collect enough to do the walls and floor with it

Well I hope it is that I have got it spot on mate and i'm not boring people with low cost ways and means :mrgreen:

I managed to make some good progress today..

I only managed to get the walls stood up and fixed together, with the help of my dad I wasn't planning on putting them together today, but my dad was available for a few hours so I thought why not. I'm not sure if I should have had some dpc under the walls..but its too late now. I also wanted to put the threaded bar through the posts/floor frame, I cant get access to them though because of the extra pieces of wood I put in for the floor to sit on. There's also galv brackets screwed to the posts and frame that are in the way. I'm going to have another look at it tomorrow and see what I can do, at the very least i'll add more screws.

Started putting some of the noggins in.

And these are the doors for £15 that I mentioned. I'm happy with them as they are solid doors with decent locks and hinges. I'm going to widen the door opening as you suggested Paul Just need to trim some off the top and maybe the bottom and then they are good to go. One of them obviously needs flipped as well.

If I wanted to keep both locks on the doors. How would I go about this, if I also wanted to have the centre frame post removable for wider access?

Anyways that's where it's at so far. I'm pleased with it as it has fixed together really well. It seems to be sitting pretty square and seems like a pretty solid frame so far

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

Ask at any local building sites for their insulation and wood offcuts, you may get lucky.
Toolstation does a reasonably cheap membrane.
If going for some rainscreen type cladding (shiplap, featheredge) leave a 25mm gap between cladding and membrane.

 

[KevB]

Ask at any local building sites for their insulation and wood offcuts, you may get lucky.
Toolstation does a reasonably cheap membrane.
If going for some rainscreen type cladding (shiplap, featheredge) leave a 25mm gap between cladding and membrane.

Hi mate

Yeah I've been thinking about asking around building sites, if I can find the courage to do so (hammer)

I keep thinking that there must be skips all over the place with kingspan offcuts in, that otherwise would just be going to waste. Are there any builders/site workers on here that have had people asking for insulation offcuts etc? What's the general view of this...are you a nice bunch? :mrgreen:

 

[Paul200]

Hi Kev. That's some progress - fair play. I haven't been ignoring you - our phone line's been taken out by a fallen tree and we've not been able to get online for 5 days! Busy playing catch up at the moment so just thought I'd look in and see where you were at. Looking good mate. :lol: (hammer) =D>

 

[KevB]

Hi Kev. That's some progress - fair play. I haven't been ignoring you - our phone line's been taken out by a fallen tree and we've not been able to get online for 5 days! Busy playing catch up at the moment so just thought I'd look in and see where you were at. Looking good mate. :lol: (hammer) =D>

Thanks mate

Ah bummer, there's nothing worse than losing your internet (hammer) Glad you back online now.

The next job is to prepare the rafters and get them fixed into place. My plan is to mark out and cut the first one, then use this as a template. Hopefully i'll manage the notching ok without any problems.

I'm a little concerned about the slope (or lack of) of the roof. I'm going to add another top plate to the front wall to give me that little extra incline. This will just about take me to the 2.5m limit. The back wall will have to do without the double top plate :roll:

I can't afford epdm, luckily enough we don't get much snow though as we live near the sea. With any luck there will be just enough of a slope to allow the rain to flow away.

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

Ask at any local building sites for their insulation and wood offcuts, you may get lucky.
Toolstation does a reasonably cheap membrane.
If going for some rainscreen type cladding (shiplap, featheredge) leave a 25mm gap between cladding and membrane.

Hi mate

Yeah I've been thinking about asking around building sites, if I can find the courage to do so (hammer)

I keep thinking that there must be skips all over the place with kingspan offcuts in, that otherwise would just be going to waste. Are there any builders/site workers on here that have had people asking for insulation offcuts etc? What's the general view of this...are you a nice bunch? :mrgreen:

Don't have to have much courage, Just find the site agent, be polite and ask, remember they have to pay to dispose of the stuff. Doesn't have to be a big site, just keep an eye out for local extensions/loft conversions etc. Every building project I have been on has binned perfectly good timber and insulation (most contractors are happy if someone can make use of it)
Also check the local free ads/classifieds, If you are in no hurry you will soon build up a collection of PIR Boards.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you use loads of bits and pieces of Kingspan (or similar) you can effectively join them up with aerosol polyurethane foam so long as you're careful not to blow the stuff apart. Just sort of dot and dab it til it's fixed then fill all the gaps.

 

[KevB]

[/quote]Don't have to have much courage, Just find the site agent, be polite and ask, remember they have to pay to dispose of the stuff. Doesn't have to be a big site, just keep an eye out for local extensions/loft conversions etc. Every building project I have been on has binned perfectly good timber and insulation (most contractors are happy if someone can make use of it)
Also check the local free ads/classifieds, If you are in no hurry you will soon build up a collection of PIR Boards.[/quote]

Ok mate cheers for that. I've been keeping my eyes peeled out and about over the Christmas period and I've come across a few local loft and roof conversions. I may take the daughter out for a walk one day and pay them a visit, see if I can catch them working on the job

If you use loads of bits and pieces of Kingspan (or similar) you can effectively join them up with aerosol polyurethane foam so long as you're careful not to blow the stuff apart. Just sort of dot and dab it til it's fixed then fill all the gaps.

Good tip Phil. I was just going to cut and pack it as neat and as tight as possible, though if my joints are all off, i'll definitely be considering this

The above pic is of some wood I was hoping to use for the rafters. It's new wood, not pallet wood, though it's slightly twisted and/or bowed. As you can see I layed them all out on the floor of my shed yesterday. I then placed some weight on them and made sure they are all sitting pretty flat at the far side. The twists are generally to this near side.

It has rained quite heavily for the past 24hrs on them (since this pic) and this morning I added more weight to the far side, moved the weight from the middle slightly closer to the near side and then added two more slabs to the near side, directly on top of the twists.

My thinking to this was if I allowed the wood to be soaked and manipulated the weight over a few days that it may reduce the twists in the wood. Do you guys think this is possible to achieve this way or am I wasting my time? (hammer)

 

[KevB]

A little update..

Rafters in. Decided to use pallet wood as it's much straighter than the twisted new wood I had.

Finished pretty much all of the noggins to the walls. Still need to fill the triangles in on the sides as well as the noggins in the roof.

Distant shot to get an idea of scale.

Notches for the threaded bar to tie the walls together. Can't get into the back right hand corner with the threaded bar as I can't get a drill in to make the holes. The fence is in the way externally and the studs are in the way internally (hammer) Don't know what to do with that corner :roll:

Tried the doors in. The doors are off centre as it's a temporary frame tacked in to see what they looked like. The final frame is now in and is much thicker.

My dad has persuaded me to get rid of the centre post that I quite liked. He said there's no need for it. I was planning on fixing it to the right hand door, so as it opens with the door. His way is to have a flap on the left door that overlaps the right door. The left door is then locked into the right door, with the right door being bolted to the floor and roof internally.

Tomorrow we're starting the cladding. I went for feather edge and it cost £200 for the lot. Cheap stuff but I hope not too cheap (hammer) :mrgreen:

This leads to another argument we've been having. As some of you guys suggest, I suggested 1 nail per board and he's saying no it's 2. I done a little investigating on google and it seems they both have pros and cons. One nail giving room for expansion/contraction and two nails stopping the boards curling out.

Considering it's cheap stuff and quite thin from what my dad is telling me (I haven't seen it yet), I think I'm edging towards two nails. What do you guys think?

 

[Paul200]

Hi Kev

It's your shout on nailing the featheredge, but I would only use one nail.

Quote from Mike Garnham -
Grandmother and egg-sucking time..........but it is worth re-iterating. One nail per board per counterbatten. That nail should be about 30/ 35mm up from the bottom (assuming a 25mm board overlap), so that the top board holds the top edge of the lower board, but still allows it to expand and contract with the seasons without splitting. I have seen boards nailed top and bottom, and I have seen them nailed too close to the bottom edge so that the nail goes through both boards. Both are big mistakes. Here is how it should be:

The nail is so close to the bottom edge that it will prevent the board curling. The only tip I can give is to go easy when putting the nails in. I used a gas nailgun on 19mm plain boards (not featheredge) and if the placement of the nail was even slightly too high it sometimes cracked the board along its length.

You've been busy again! Whatever you choose, good luck

 

[KevB]

Hi Paul

Thanks for your latest reply, it actually played a part today, mid way through cladding.

Though we had already nailed one side into place (the wrong way to what is advised on here). There is currently only one nail in the first side, but in the wrong place. It's at the top of every board. Going by my dads way, I had the intension of adding the second nail afterwards. Then...

..I had a toilet break and checked my phone to see if anybody had replied to my thread. Although I had already known about Mikes way to do it, I sort of understood/read it wrong doh (hammer). I didn't think it through properly and didn't realise how one nail was going to stop (my cheap choice of cladding) curling up. Then it hit me, the nail was in the wrong position. I was too concerned about hiding the nail to realise that it should be at the bottom (hammer)

Anyways, the second side has been done as mike describes. Question now is, do I leave the one nail in the first side, or add a second where it should be?

A few pics from today..

It's cheap stuff, but I mean it looks ok to me and hopefully it'll do what it's supposed to do. I'm hoping it'll stain ok as well. Full of knots and quite weathered looking, but (I think) I kind of like that look to fit in with my garden/other shed..rather than brand spanking more expensive cladding.

Some of the bolts went in today. M8 bar, with a 13mm nyloc nut.

All in all I'm pleased with how this is going. I have missed things out (after much consideration), like batterns/gap, membrane, wood protection etc. It's a risk I'm willing to take though and a lesson learned if and when I decide to build another shed on a higher budget.

Just a quick question on electrics (thinking ahead here :mrgreen: ) Anybody who knows anything about this area know roughly how much it would cost to set up two double sockets and a strip light? I'm guessing I need an armoured cable for this?

Thanks again Paul. I'm enjoying it, though I do keep arguing with my dad haha. Sometimes he is right, sometimes I am right..i think it's just a dad/son thing (hammer) :mrgreen: