Sharpening a draw knife.

[Jacob]

The majority of woodworkers today are amateurs who did not benefit from a seven year apprenticeship.

However they want to get stuff made in less than 7 years !

David

I'm sure you could do it Dave - if you'd just stop talking yourself (and a lot of other people) out of it!

 

[D_W]

The current state of the hobbyist-heavy woodworking industry is certainly well saturated with gadgets to make fairly simple processes mystery free, or at least skill free. Many of them do make specific tasks easily performed to a high degree of accuracy. Most sharpening jigs to me seem to fall into this category. The problem in the end is that by substituting a jig for manual skill you do not gain the manual skill which would transfer laterally to related sharpening tasks which the jig does not address. So you need yet another jig. Pretty soon you have a pile of sharpening jigs with lots of small parts and adjustments to fiddle with. Yes, those jigs will allow you to sharpen slightly more accurately than I do freehand, but nowhere as fast, certainly no sharper and frankly whether the bevel is at 30° or 32° makes no difference at all with any of my tools.

Well put. Freehand sharpening is the *gateway drug* to sharpening everything in the house that can be sharpened, and with nothing more than a decent bench stone or two. Knives, scissors, etc. (and more importantly for the wood shop, having the hand control to set up and then maintain gouges, moulding planes, etc).

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I think some forget how long it can take to 'master basic skills' to use a phrase posted above. Those who learned during an apprenticeship were working 40 or so hours a week, 48 weeks of the year for four years (or more). It's true that for the first year they may only have been brewing the tea and sweeping up, but they still had far more hours available that someone of middle years with a full-time career or job and a wish to achieve something rather than just fiddle around.

I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours. Of the things I've done in life, both professionally as a design engineer and in my own time, I'd say there was some truth in that. To become adequately competent at any particular aspect of a particular craft may be only a small part of that, but each part must be practiced at least to a level of basic competency before the whole becomes viable.

Thus, for someone of middle years with more money available than time, some devices may help to shorten the time required to get a good result, thus leaving more time for the other aspects that can't be so easily short-curcuited. If enough time is invested, adequate competence with the basics can be achieved, and the devices then left aside. But not everybody has that time.

'Different people, different ways' as D.H.Lawrence once wrote.

 

[MIGNAL]

I once spent 10,000 hours looking for the perfect sharpening jig. Just another 10,000 hours to go!

 

[Jacob]

,,,,,..... Freehand sharpening is the *gateway drug* to sharpening everything in the house that can be sharpened, and with nothing more than a decent bench stone or two. Knives, scissors, etc. (and more importantly for the wood shop, having the hand control to set up and then maintain gouges, moulding planes, etc).

Funny you should say that - when I finally gave up fiddling about with jigs and rediscovered freehand I was so pleased with how fast and easy it was I set about sharpening every single thing in my workshop - including boxes of stuff lying around for years which I'd never used and probably never will. It's addictive!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I once spent 10,000 hours looking for the perfect sharpening jig. Just another 10,000 hours to go!

I must have spent about 10,000 hours making tea...

 

[Jacob]

....
I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours. ....

Yes but that is for the whole gamut of required skills, knowledge and experience - not just sharpening! :lol:
So e.g. an artist might take 10000 hours to get going but that is not 10000 hours of pencil sharpening !
Pencils, chisels, plane irons all roughly equivalent in degree of sharpening difficulty i.e. any fool can do it after an hour or so from the off (unless they've talked themselves out of it and convinced themselves it's really difficult!)

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours.

From someone who had already spent 10000 hours or more doing that something, and didn't want competition, I'll wager.

As Jacob says, much depends on the scope of the "something", and the extent of "really competent". We are talking 5-6 years full time here.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

....
I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours. ....

Yes but that is for the whole gamut of required skills, knowledge and experience - not just sharpening! :lol:
So e.g. an artist might take 10000 hours to get going but that is not 10000 hours of pencil sharpening !
Pencils, chisels, plane irons all roughly equivalent in degree of sharpening difficulty i.e. any fool can do it after an hour or so from the off (unless they've talked themselves out of it and convinced themselves it's really difficult!)

The 10,000 hours in this case would be to become a competent cabinetmaker, or joiner. Part of that is being able to keep the tools of the trade in good order. It doesn't mean that it takes 10,000 hours to learn to sharpen a pencil.

Just to clarify.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I've heard it said that to become really competent at something takes about 10,000 hours.

From someone who had already spent 10000 hours or more doing that something, and didn't want competition, I'll wager.

As Jacob says, much depends on the scope of the "something", and the extent of "really competent". We are talking 5-6 years full time here.

Yeah. Where you a competent engineer straight out of university? Or did it take a bit longer?

 

[Jacob]

10000 hours came from a study of pro musicians and what it takes to become one at the very start of a career.
A conclusion was that 10000 hours of training and practice would do it, and similarly in other fields.
It's very arguable but perhaps not surprising as it amounts to about 5 years full time - same as degree plus pro qualification time.
But the good news was that it meant almost anybody can reach a good level of competency in any field, given the right education/training and enough practice. The idea of innate talent goes out of the window and it becomes more about opportunity and motivation.
The proof is all around us; free state education taking people into areas previously closed to their forbears, and conversely; private education taking the privileged few into areas well beyond their intelligence or any "natural" ability (think "Bullingdon Club" :lol: )

 

[MIGNAL]

I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

10000 hours came from a study of pro musicians and what it takes to become one at the very start of a career.
A conclusion was that 10000 hours of training and practice would do it, and similarly in other fields.
It's very arguable but perhaps not surprising as it amounts to about 5 years full time - same as degree plus pro qualification time.
But the good news was that it meant almost anybody can reach a good level of competency in any field, given the right education/training and enough practice. The idea of innate talent goes out of the window and it becomes more about opportunity and motivation.
The proof is all around us; free state education taking people into areas previously closed to their forbears, and conversely; private education taking the privileged few into areas well beyond their intelligence or any "natural" ability (think "Bullingdon Club" :lol: )

You just can't resist trying to provoke an argument, can you Jacob? :lol:

 

[mouppe]

All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig.

Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4".

In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.

 

[D_W]

All the naysayers are assuming that everybody uses a jig went straight from not knowing how to sharpen to using a jig.

Well that's not me and I suspect a lot of others too. I can sharpen almost everything freehand- including a drawknife- but when I tried the Galbert tool I just found it worked better for me and was easier too. So yes, I can sharpen it freehand the way I used to, but I prefer now to use the guide. I also prefer using a guide for chisels narrower than 1/4".

In reality, it's the "one-way only" guys that are limiting their skill base.

I don't expect you to take a suggestion from me, but i'll offer one, anyway. Narrow chisels are more easily sharpened by holding them with one hand. The whole sharpening process might be 20 seconds, since there is so little metal to remove, it should be easier to get a good result with them. Off the grinder, it's something like three strokes on a stone, work the back briefly, strop. Repeat again with 10 seconds of initial work on a medium stone. getting two hands involved makes things crowded and putting pressure at the end of the tool as usual with an extra set of fingers introduces twist that you won't get if you sharpen with one hand with your index finger laid on top of the chisel back.

 

[Jacob]

Narrow chisels are about the easiest thing in the world to sharpen. No grinding needed (unless in a very bad way) - just draw them back towards you over the stone starting at about 25º and lifting to about 30º at the end of the stroke.
More skill required to sharpen a pencil.

 

[profchris]

I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.

Ah, but were they 10,000 hours of practice towards improvement?

In aviation, where I also play, we make a distinction between someone who has 10,000 hours flying and someone else who flew the same hour 10,000 times.

So you know I'm not immune, although I probably have fewer than 100 hours chisel sharpening under my belt I fear they were all the same hour. My ukulele paying is showing real improvement, while my ukulele making seems to be going backwards. I put the latter down to intermittently blunt chisels and plane blades.

 

[bugbear]

I've done 10,000 hours on guitar. I'm still at grade 3 !! My consolation is that I can sharpen a chisel freehand.

Turns out Gladwell over-simplified (had a book to sell, go figure).

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2012111 ... -rule-myth

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Oh, I'd willingly agree that 10,000 hours is an oversimplification. However, as the BBC article says,

"Scientifically speaking, 10,000 hours is not a precise figure but shorthand for “lots and lots of dedicated practice”. Even 10,000 hours of dedicated practice may not be enough to give you the skills of a virtuoso. But whether you dream of playing at the concert hall, wielding the guitar, or taking part on the running track, 10,000 hours is a good starting point. Double that and you may even be winning international competitions.

However you look at it, being the best requires a lot of time and effort, and few people are willing to dedicate so much of their lives to a single pursuit. So while practice may get some of us close to perfection, for many of us it is an unattainable goal. That’s no reason not to give it a try, of course."

The point I was trying to make is that getting good at something takes time, and sometimes some of the required practice can be shortened by using suitable devices to avoid the need for time spent skill-building. Those devices are not necessarily invalid for some people in some circumstances.

Phew. Almost wish I hadn't mentioned it, now!

 

[bugbear]

We learned to sharpen at school. It took about 10 minutes to get the idea and a few hours of tool use to get good at it. Not seven years. 7 days max? Nothing has changed - except the desperate efforts of the gadget makers trying to de-skill everybody and sell them stuff instead.

That was back in the mid eighties, at tech college, right?

And then you spent around 20 years as a joiner, principally making sash windows.

And then, a few years ago, you invented your current technique, after a discussion on this very forum.

So - what technique were you taught at college, and what technique did you use for your professional career?

BugBear (curious)