Scotland NHS ban Desflurane Anesthetic….why should you care? You should.

[Jacob]

......There are a number of conditions that the NHS will not perform elective surgery for if you are mortally obese.

....only when it is deemed too difficult or risky. They make no moral judgments. Eugenics went out of fashion with Hitler.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

He didn't mention moral judgements.

 

[Jacob]

He didn't mention moral judgements.

Yes he did.
He says fat people are to blame for their condition and hence should not have surgery.
He implies that even if not to blame they still aren't worth saving.
Bring on the "final solution".

 

[Agent_zed]

@Blackswanwood If we play the offended card, nobody would ever be able to say anything. Someone will always be offended by anything said. So, for instance, I wasn’t in the slightest offended by @Spectric comments, they seemed perfectly rational. There are a small number of medical conditions that cause obesity that the person has little control over, these affect a tiny number of people. The majority it’s a lifestyle choice. If we consider the downsides of obesity including the medical impact that places them at a higher risks for a significant number of conditions we probably as a society should view it as morally acceptable as smoking or drug abuse. Today, we think nothing of smoke-shaming and indeed have laws restricting where you can indulge. We equally have laws concerning the use of recreational drugs all of which is driven by the harm it can do. For some reason, it seems acceptable and in fact intolerable to fat-shame. When we divorce moral responsibility from actions we are on a slippery slope. In fact I would suggest condoning being obese is in fact a form of abuse. There are a number of conditions that the NHS will not perform elective surgery for if you are mortally obese.

Would you also condone the banning of alcohol then? It causes numerous fatalities a year, is a factor in many abuse and assults and causes health issues for millions. including obesity. Not only that, unlike obesity it often affects more than just the person drinking e.g. drunk driving accidents.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes he did.
He says fat people are to blame for their condition and hence should not have surgery.
He implies that even if not to blame they still aren't worth saving.
Bring on the "final solution".

"There are a number of conditions that the NHS will not perform elective surgery for if you are mortally obese."
That was the statement YOU quoted. He didn't say they made moral judgements. What said before was not relevant to the statement you commented on.

 

[Jacob]

"There are a number of conditions that the NHS will not perform elective surgery for if you are mortally obese."
That was the statement YOU quoted. He didn't say they made moral judgements. What said before was not relevant to the statement you commented on.

"The majority it’s a lifestyle choice."

 

[Blackswanwood]

@Blackswanwood If we play the offended card, nobody would ever be able to say anything. Someone will always be offended by anything said. So, for instance, I wasn’t in the slightest offended by @Spectric comments, they seemed perfectly rational. There are a small number of medical conditions that cause obesity that the person has little control over, these affect a tiny number of people. The majority it’s a lifestyle choice. If we consider the downsides of obesity including the medical impact that places them at a higher risks for a significant number of conditions we probably as a society should view it as morally acceptable as smoking or drug abuse. Today, we think nothing of smoke-shaming and indeed have laws restricting where you can indulge. We equally have laws concerning the use of recreational drugs all of which is driven by the harm it can do. For some reason, it seems acceptable and in fact intolerable to fat-shame. When we divorce moral responsibility from actions we are on a slippery slope. In fact I would suggest condoning being obese is in fact a form of abuse. There are a number of conditions that the NHS will not perform elective surgery for if you are mortally obese.

Yes, obviously you are right. I should have realised that a bunch of blokes on a woodworking forum are best placed to define how medical ethics should be applied.

 

[Spectric]

Yes, obviously you are right. I should have realised that a bunch of blokes on a woodworking forum are best placed to define how medical ethics should be applied.

Bad assumption, it might be a woodworking forum but that does not mean we are all "woodworkers" but for many it is an interest / hobby or necessity and we come from many other backgrounds that might well include medical or other disciplines other than some form of engineering.

As Jacob says

"The majority it’s a lifestyle choice."

It has to be unless someone is force feeding them, but surely some of the issues are junk food, ie takeaways and this could be one of the reasons that people who live in more rural locations are healthier just because they don't have an excess of junk food outlets on their doorsteps and might be that much more active. What about a windfall tax on the junk food outlets, they are making money whilst stacking up future cost for the NHS.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"The majority it’s a lifestyle choice."

Yes. But that wasn't part of what you were commenting on and nothing to do with the NHS.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Bad assumption, it might be a woodworking forum but that does not mean we are all "woodworkers" but for many it is an interest / hobby or necessity and we come from many other backgrounds that might well include medical or other disciplines other than some form of engineering.

No assumption made - whatever your background you’re just a bloke on a woodworking forum.

I’m out of this as apart from feeling this discussion is not in keeping with the forum rules of keeping things friendly I’m confortable enough in my own skin not to need the last word.

 

[Jacob]

Yes. But that wasn't part of what you were commenting on

Yes it was

and nothing to do with the NHS.

He's suggesting that it should be a concern of the NHS.
I'm out of this thread too (for the second time!). It's even deader in the water.

 

[Spectric]

Lets bring this back on topic, @deema said

Scotland and soon the UK are to ban the use of Desflurane Anaesthetic on grounds that it has a high global warming foot print.

He also states his knowledge

Now, I’m not medically trained, I’m not an anaesthetist or claim to have any specialist knowledge. I’m just one of a team of five who designed and developed the Tec 6 which is the thing that administrates the drug to the patient.

So rather than fighting about it lets actually think about the actual implications of what is going to happen. The fact is that anything the government see's as having any impact on it's so called carbon neutral plans is at risk, whether this is an anaesthetic that appears to deliver benefits to people, woodburning stoves or coal fired power stations they are all targeted without really having any obvious replacements that are at least as good as what has been removed.

We are told all new ICE vehicles will be banned by 2030, yes in just 23 years time but is there really a solid plan of action to fully deliver electric vehicles or will we become like Cuba where people have to keep anything on the road. We are already in huge national debt, HS2 is way over budget and yet we will have to upgrade our entire electrical infrastructure to support everyone using electric vehicles by then so what are the odds. So really this anaesthetic issue is just another knee jerk reaction and I believe the government does not care about the population providing it can achieve its master plan of carbon neutral by which time asia will probably still be much more polluting but also a much bigger thriving economy.

 

[Rewound]

We are told all new ICE vehicles will be banned by 2030, yes in just 23 years time but is there really a solid plan of action to fully deliver electric vehicles or will we become like Cuba where people have to keep anything on the road. We are already in huge national debt, HS2 is way over budget and yet we will have to upgrade our entire electrical infrastructure to support everyone using electric vehicles by then so what are the odds. So really this anaesthetic issue is just another knee jerk reaction and I believe the government does not care about the population providing it can achieve its master plan of carbon neutral by which time asia will probably still be much more polluting but also a much bigger thriving economy.

is it only 2007 , plenty of time to avoid climate catastrophe, wee Greta Thunberg probably hasn't been born yet!

 

[Spectric]

opps's that has made the issue an impossibility, not 23 years but just 7 which to me is just an act of uk sabotage by the government. Who is looking to go electric in the next 7 years ? Going back to that Guy Martin program when he climbed a suspension tower at the national grid training centre to work on the overheads they said they only have 100 people who can do this type of work so apart from the cost how many towers can they expect to upgrade and re-string in 7 years.

 

[Jacob]

opps's that has made the issue an impossibility, not 23 years but just 7 which to me is just an act of uk sabotage by the government. Who is looking to go electric in the next 7 years ? Going back to that Guy Martin program when he climbed a suspension tower at the national grid training centre to work on the overheads they said they only have 100 people who can do this type of work so apart from the cost how many towers can they expect to upgrade and re-string in 7 years.

Yep. Too late. I blame the climate change sceptics and the oil companies cover up
Big oil and gas kept a dirty secret for decades. Now they may pay the price
To deal with climate change we should by now be on something like a war footing, with everything essential being done as a matter of urgency, at whatever cost - to be borne largely by the fossil fuel industry.
Shouldn't this thread be in the political forum, what with "fattism", euthanasia, climate change scepticism, etc? Surprised the mods haven't noticed!

 

[Spectric]

I think it is bobbling along and has not crossed the line and providing we can all be nice to each other then there are no issues.

 

[Jacob]

I think it is bobbling along and has not crossed the line and providing we can all be nice to each other then there are no issues.

Actually I think it is well over the line, with the offensive suggestion that fat people should die, and very explicit climate change scepticism.
Come on mods!
I'd just delete it all, it's rubbish from start to finish.