Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I base my opinion on these peoples' opinions, who seem to know more about the issue than you or I.
If you think they are wrong you should be addressing them and explaining the error of their ways.
Scotland NHS ban Desflurane Anesthetic….why should you care? You should.
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If you think they are wrong you should be addressing them and explaining the error of their ways.
Agent_zed
Established Member
That is interesting thanks for posting it.
What I am unsure about though is whether this study takes into account the global warming potential of each gas vs just the actual CO2 emmisions production.
The NHS article states that desflurane has a 'global warming potential 2,500 times greater than carbon dioxide.'. So if this is not part of the above calculations it wouldn't matter if the alternative is 100x greater CO2 emmisions to use as desflurane would still have a vastly increased effect on the environment.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Well yes - it's not "all about how it’s made" it's about the warming potential of the particular gas.
You have overlooked the huge amounts of power needed in the USA to maintain the data storage centres needed for the WWW and of course storing huge amounts of pointless social media data and then the motor car which consumes huge amounts of energy in its manufacture and subsequent use, this will not go away with electric vehicles but in some ways will be worse because ICE produce exhaust pollutants whereas electric vehicles will leave a legacy of toxic battery waste. I would suggest the savings with no longer manufacturing this anaesthetic are really miniscule, butthe benefits of keeping it seem to outweigh any savings in pollution. The daft thing is that even if we stop using it, it will still be manufactured for other countries so we are just making ourselves look stupid, we do seem to be on a path to some desolate place unless we can introduce intelligence into the decision and policy making process.
Agent_zed
Established Member
Ok but where is the intelligence in your decision. Where is the evidence? what are you basing your suggestion on? People can keep saying it's vitally important and the benefits outweigh the negatives but so far I have not seen evidence for this. It is literally opinions.
The CO2 lifecycle of the gases was the closest thing to evidence against the environmental reasons for switching, but even that is not clear if it takes into account global warming potential over pure CO2 emissions. And this does not have anything to do with whether using an alternative anaethetic is better or worse for a patient.
As an aside I happen to agree with you on electric cars not being a good alternative, but I certainly don't agree we should just throw in the towel on enviromental issues just because other countries aren't bothering right now. Other countries also deforest their land, should we do the same so we can have cheaper wood?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Not what the experts say NHS England » Putting anaesthetic emissions to bed: commitment on desflurane
Or imaginative, progressive, intelligent, and setting an example for others to follow. Somebody has to lead the way and why not the UK?
Probably the most significant clinical evidence of its clinical effectiveness is using the study you’ve highlighted. 20% of all ops used it and only after the government introduced its policy of carbon foot print reduction gas that changed. It was used despite it being more expensive for a reason, a clinical reason that it was the most appropriate for the procedure.
The only ‘damming’ evidence against it is its supposed carbon footprint. Nobody has said there is a better more effective drug, only that others can be used.
The only ‘damming’ evidence against it is its supposed carbon footprint. Nobody has said there is a better more effective drug, only that others can be used.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
You seriously believe the rest of the world gives a toss what Britain does or doesn't do? You're deluded.
Agent_zed
Established Member
A bit off topic but in certain circumstances yes. For example if we can show renewable energy is viable then other countries will be follow. If we are a leader in the technology then we can sell that expertise. Otherwise we will be playing catch up and have to pay other countries for the tech when we need it.
If you don't believe there is a need to switch from fossil fuels etc then ask yourself why countries in the UAE are desparately trying to diversify into tourism rather than just continuing on with oil sales. It is going to run out eventually!
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Britain is still a wealthy and powerful country in world terms, in spite of brexit.
Even if not I don't think the idea of dulling down to match the others is a good idea. Being deliberately stupid doesn't sound like a winning strategy.
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Yes, the big dominant issue of our time. More important than any other.
But the warming effect is the much bigger issue by far in this particular case, 2500 times the effect of CO2, not just the carbon footprint from production. They are not quite the same thing.
Good, that's OK then.
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Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Don't do it then.Being deliberately stupid doesn't sound like a winning strategy.
Doug71
Established Member
My friend is part of a company which has developed the technology to capture 99.9% of the volatile anaesthetic agents which can then be recycled and reused.
I get the impression the NHS are not on board with it yet as it costs and they are more budget driven than environment driven.
I get the impression the NHS are not on board with it yet as it costs and they are more budget driven than environment driven.
Also off topic but a bit of very encouraging information. Everybody knows that one of the biggest problems we face if we want to switch to renewable energy is storing power to use on the infamous "cold still nights". The country currently making the biggest investment and with the highest currently installed capacity..........USA! well done America Also a world leader in CHP from fuel cells! A transfer technology that greatly reduces gas usage per kW. China will follow, their not stupid and they have a population already very concerned about pollution. India as far as I can tell DGAF!
Renewables in this country last year made up 35.5% of our electricity generation, gas 41%, our bills are painful enough, can you imagine what they would be without the wind turbines.
The U.K. doesn’t make large scale wind turbines, that’s everyone else apart from us, the biggest is Vestas based in Denmark. We don’t make solar panels, they mainly come from the far east with coal powered electrical generating stations to make them. The U.K. is not the the leader in green technology. We spend a lot of money on it and help develop other nations technology. Early adopters of technology pay the highest premiums and suffer with all the technical difficulties the learning requires.
Back on topic…..hmm.
The article that highlights that the U.K. NHS is also banning Desflurane is interesting,
https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/putting-anaesthetic-emissions-to-bed/
I like to look at the authors backgrounds to see if they are interested in the science behind making a decision, or if it’s just a political perspective they are fulfilling. So, Dr Nick Watts, he is a Doctor, but not an anaesthetist, so will have a passing knowledge of the subject but not specialist trained in it. His job isn‘t clinical he’s the Chief Sustainable Officer for the NHS, with Papers about how he intends to create a net carbon zero NHS. So, his job is about getting rid of the NHS carbon footprint.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/author/dr-nick-watts/
Professor Ramani Moonesinghe is Professor of peri-operative medicine at University College London, she is an anaesthetist and is the Director of the national Health Services Research Centre at the Royal College of Anaesthetists and head of her research department at UCL. She knows her stuff.
The last author is Claire Foreman, she doesn’t appear to be medically trained and is an adminstrator looking at patient experience.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/author/claire-foreman/
The NHS IMO is probably one of the most politically charged environments to work within. The leadership and direction is government led, so if the green agenda is mandated, that’s what happens. If it doesn’t the people get shuffled until a person is in place who does get it done. Those running it don’t last long if they don’t tow the line. It’s an environment at a senior level very few can survive or would want to work within. So, looking at the line up, they have one person to give the report some credibility (Anaesthetist) the main person has a job that’s dependant on delivering the green agenda, and a third who has no specialist knowledge in either environmental issues or clinical anaesthetists. Dont you just love how decisions are made on our behalf?
The article that highlights that the U.K. NHS is also banning Desflurane is interesting,
https://www.england.nhs.uk/blog/putting-anaesthetic-emissions-to-bed/
I like to look at the authors backgrounds to see if they are interested in the science behind making a decision, or if it’s just a political perspective they are fulfilling. So, Dr Nick Watts, he is a Doctor, but not an anaesthetist, so will have a passing knowledge of the subject but not specialist trained in it. His job isn‘t clinical he’s the Chief Sustainable Officer for the NHS, with Papers about how he intends to create a net carbon zero NHS. So, his job is about getting rid of the NHS carbon footprint.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/author/dr-nick-watts/
Professor Ramani Moonesinghe is Professor of peri-operative medicine at University College London, she is an anaesthetist and is the Director of the national Health Services Research Centre at the Royal College of Anaesthetists and head of her research department at UCL. She knows her stuff.
The last author is Claire Foreman, she doesn’t appear to be medically trained and is an adminstrator looking at patient experience.
https://www.england.nhs.uk/author/claire-foreman/
The NHS IMO is probably one of the most politically charged environments to work within. The leadership and direction is government led, so if the green agenda is mandated, that’s what happens. If it doesn’t the people get shuffled until a person is in place who does get it done. Those running it don’t last long if they don’t tow the line. It’s an environment at a senior level very few can survive or would want to work within. So, looking at the line up, they have one person to give the report some credibility (Anaesthetist) the main person has a job that’s dependant on delivering the green agenda, and a third who has no specialist knowledge in either environmental issues or clinical anaesthetists. Dont you just love how decisions are made on our behalf?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Just think how far ahead we could have been with constructive state financed R&D!
China is
No we don't - that is the problem.
Not really
Early adoptors usually are ahead of the game. Plenty of others well ahead of the UK.
Ollie78
Established Member
I agree with you on this entirely, I am fairly certain the amount of global warming caused is minimal in comparison to many less important but more profitable things.
It looks like another case of green madness.
This is a clear case of benefit outweighing cost.
Many industries just pay farmers to grow giant grass species which capture loads of carbon to "offset" whatever they do.
Nowadays when I hear of something or other being "green" or environmentally friendly it just sort of makes me suspicious.
Ollie
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Are you quite sure you know the subject better than these people?
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