Sawing straight

[andersonec]

Sometimes the perfect stance or the perfect angle cannot be achieved depending on where you are working, the only way is to practise, start with some thin (9mm) pieces of ply or mdf and try cutting strips off the edge(25mm) mark one line with your sharp pencil, do not be tempted to go over the line twice to make it darker or thicker, concentrate on the cutting stroke and keeping the teeth on the waste side of the line, try and cut through half of the line, easy firm strokes and don't force the saw, when you have that mastered try something a bit thicker (15mm) The most important thing is a sharp saw and keep it vertical to the cut.

Andy

 

[Jacob]

Hi all,

I'm slowly practising my hand tool techniques and thought I was beginning to see progress at sawing in a straight line, until last night... :roll:

I've got a mixture of Japanese pull saws and traditional western back saws and with shorter cuts I've been pretty happy with what I've done.

However, when I came to do quite a long rip of an ash plank last night it went all horribly wrong! I was ok for about 150mm, then it started to go off track and I couldn't get it back straight. So I flipped the board round and started ripping down the other side with the same problem so the cuts didn't meet in the middle where they were supposed to - about 5mm off on a 750mm long rip cut. Oh, and I was using a Japanese ryoba.

So, what are the key techniques to sawing straight with 1. Pull saws and 2. Back saws and how do you correct with both if you start going off line (i.e. do you put pressure in one particular direction to get it back on track)?

Cheers,

Jonny

P.S. If there are any previous posts on this subject that I've missed please point me in their direction...

I've never used a Jap saw but I must say that the Ryoba seems an improbable rip saw, being too short, too fine toothed, too expensive, un-sharpenable.
It is a hard tooth throwaway. Why is this fashionable and acceptable with Jap saws but not so with western equivalents?
A western hardtooth such as this one would almost certainly rip better at a fraction of the price.
My preferred option (if having to do it by hand) - a trad rip saw (26" long, steep 3 to 4 tpi) would also do it very quickly with no difficulty and would be re-sharpenable and last for life.
Why waste your time and money fiddling about with silly saws?

PS

....I was beginning to see progress at sawing in a straight line,....

Use a good rip saw and you could get it right first time.

 

[No skills]

Quick google reveals a larger japanese ripsaw. I thought the ryobas were a smaller dual purpose saw?? rip one side and crosscut the other - or am I confusing the names??

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2094

 

[Jacob]

Quick google reveals a larger japanese ripsaw. I thought the ryobas were a smaller dual purpose saw?? rip one side and crosscut the other - or am I confusing the names??

http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/2094

Saws nearly as big as a Brit rip saw (26" blade)*. They are getting there.
That's a neat trick with two saws! The Brit way goes one step further and makes the two saws into one two hander - cutting both ways, straighter and faster.
I guess the jap saws are based on proto industrial steel techniques, which accounts for the small size and general oddity,

*PS actually 28" blade on my ancient Ibbertson ebay fivers worth.

 

[bugbear]

PS

....I was beginning to see progress at sawing in a straight line,....

Use a good rip saw and you could get it right first time.

A well chosen, good quality tool can make all the difference.

BugBear

 

[andersonec]

I've never used a Jap saw but I must say that the Ryoba seems an improbable rip saw, being too short, too fine toothed, too expensive, un-sharpenable.
It is a hard tooth throwaway. Why is this fashionable and acceptable with Jap saws but not so with western equivalents?
A western hardtooth such as this one would almost certainly rip better at a fraction of the price.
My preferred option (if having to do it by hand) - a trad rip saw (26" long, steep 3 to 4 tpi) would also do it very quickly with no difficulty and would be re-sharpenable and last for life.
Why waste your time and money fiddling about with silly saws?

Jacob,

Japanese saws were developed by the Japanese for their working technique, traditionally they did not use benches and their work was done on the floor, hence the pulling action of their saws and planes (the pulling cut allows for a much thinner blade) and the pulling cut of the plane allows the body to prop the work, completely different techniques demand different tools, their tools have made their way into the UK by sales people and found a niche with those who like to try something a little different, some folks swear by their chisels and some folks have completely moved over to their saws, some of their saws do have a place on the British workbench though, try one of their little dovetail saws and see the difference.

Give a Japanese a European saw and he would not know how to use it, likewise in the West Indies (St Lucia to be precise) they saw with the the teeth of the saw facing away from the body, try that if you want a challenge.

Andy

 

[pedder]

(the pulling cut allows for a much thinner blade)

Sorry, I can't stand this sale staff argument any more. :-?

No blade can be as thin as a blade in a bow saw, the continental saw.

A blade in a proper made back saw can be nearly as thin as in a bow saw. Because the spine tensiones the blade. But it limits the cutting deepth.

Pushing or pulling doesn't matter really at this types. The tension, from the bow or the spine keeps the blade from bowing or kinking. The blade is pulled through the cerve.

Only at the big hand saws it matters. So that is not a problem of fine woodworking. The blades on japanese ripping saws are as thick as the blades of hand saws.

So why japanese blades from dictum workbetter than the back saw from your DIY store? It is sharpened and set better. And for crosscuts the japanes tooth patterns is better, because it allows more edges without clogging, due to the deeper gullets.

Don't believe me? Send me your thinnest blade and I will saw on the push - with a spine.

Sorry for the rant

Cheers
Pedder

 

[Jacob]

I.....the pulling cut allows for a much thinner blade....

The Ryoba isn't particularly thin. Starts at 0.5mm about the same as my very ordinary (but excellent) Spear & Jackson DT saw.[/quote]

Judging by lumberjock site they aren't very fast either - only an hour to cut that little log!

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for people fiddling about with exotic tools and techniques but they aren't necessarily better than our own trad ways. Can be worse in fact.

 

[No skills]

So why japanese blades from dictum workbetter than the back saw from your DIY store? It is sharpened and set better.

Yes, any new (western) saw I have got from a diy shop has been pretty horrible to use, the Japanese saws I have brought have been very nice.

 

[Jacob]

So why japanese blades from dictum workbetter than the back saw from your DIY store? It is sharpened and set better.

Yes, any new (western) saw I have got from a diy shop has been pretty horrible to use, the Japanese saws I have brought have been very nice.

Yenbbut you can sharpen your cheap DIY saw but you have to throw the jap one away when it's blunt.

 

[Harbo]

I recently had to cross cut some very long 250mm wide 35mm thick oak planks.
I started off using a very little used Sandvik Hard Point 14TPI Tenon Saw and gave up - it cut so slow and was hard work.
Instead I used my Kataba which cut it with very little effort and twice as fast.
The only slight downside is that the up stroke cut produces a lot of sawdust which entails a fair amount of mouth blowing to clear the marked cut line.
But a small price to pay?
I bought this saw several years back from WH - it's been used quite often and still going strong!

Rod

 

[Jacob]

I recently had to cross cut some very long 250mm wide 35mm thick oak planks.
I started off using a very little used Sandvik Hard Point 14TPI Tenon Saw and gave up - it cut so slow and was hard work.

Not surprising - thats almost a dovetail saw, much to fine for thick oak

Instead I used my Kataba which cut it with very little effort and twice as fast.

What TPI?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I read recently that a saw cuts wood at it's most efficient when there are between six and twelve teeth engaged in the cut (I can't find the reference, now, so I cant attribute it - thought it was Holtzappfel, but can't find it again).

IF that's the case, then a 6tpi handsaw would be ideal for crosscutting 1 1/2" stock (given that the saw is usually used at about 45 degrees to the wood, so the cut length is about 1 1/2 times the stock thickness). For 1" stock, about 10tpi would be ideal. A big 3tpi full rip would be best kept for 3" stuff. You get the idea....

That 'rule of thumb' really only applies for fast cutting. If you need a fine finish, or an accurate cut (tenon shoulder, say), a finer saw would be better, I think.

 

[bugbear]

Yenbbut you can sharpen your cheap DIY saw

I doubt it. Bet you it was hardpoint.

To get a sharpenable saw you either need an expensive one or an old one.

Working chippies use hardpoints - at one point Axminster did Bahco #244 in five packs. Cheaper and quicker than getting a trad saw sharpened :-(

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

The Kataba has 14TPI the same as the Sandvik.
Blade thickness 0.5mm, Sandvik 0.75mm.

Rod

 

[woodbloke]

Instead I used my Kataba which cut it with very little effort and twice as fast.
The only slight downside is that the up stroke cut produces a lot of sawdust which entails a fair amount of mouth blowing to clear the marked cut line.
But a small price to pay?
I bought this saw several years back from WH - it's been used quite often and still going strong!

Rod

Got the same saw Rod...excellent bit of kit - Rob