Sawing small or thin pieces??

[Shultzy]

Woden, The fork lift truck took about 300 hours of work spread over about 6 months. I bought the band saw in the 70's as I had no room for a proper table saw. I must confess that I have a table saw, but its a B&D circular saw clamped on a sheet of steel and inlaid in a 4'x4' of ply so it doesn't count. I don't sharpen the blades as mine snap long before they become dull (a known problem with 3 wheeled bandsaws). I think you only need separate blades if you carry out a lot of curved work.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I don't have a bandsaw or table saw so can't really comment on them. If you are making small things like boxes you could probably do it all with hand tools and save yourself a lot of money. ...

I'm genuinely interested to know what you use for sawing. Do you do it all with handsaws, Paul? If so, how do you go about projects? Handsaws don't strike me as being very accurate - well not in my hands anyway - so do you have to finish all your cuts with a hand plane or even sander to get a good finish/edge? What about really small fiddly pieces - do you find them difficult to secure while you saw them? That is, of course, if you use hand saws.

Hi Woden,

It's all about making the most of what you have and what you can afford. I've been doing woodwork since 1970 and built everything from kitchens and furniture to "small fiddly things" and I've never owned a table saw or bandsaw. All I have in the way of power tools is a biscuit jointer, jigsaw, hand-held circular saw (which I don't use much), couple of routers and an orbital sander. And I use them mainly when I need to work with man-made boards, like MDF, for which hand tools are not really suitable. Most of my work with solid wood is with hand tools.

Holding small work for sawing is not really a problem if you use a bench hook or vice and planing small work is easy and accurate once you've mastered the use of a shooting board.

Here's a marking gauge I made recently using hand tools - I suppose you could call that a small, fiddly piece

Of course, it's nice to have a full range of machinery as well as hand tools but if you have some good hand tools and learn how to sharpen and use them properly, you can achieve most of what you want to do.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[engineer one]

woden, the more i look at what you are thinking about, the more i would suggest getting a circular saw and rail guide system for basic cutting and then maybe a modelling saw for the final sizing of small parts.

for sure you need to get experience, and a table saw can be a little intimidating whilst learning, so maybe the answer is to learn more of other tools and there works, and your abilities with them before moving upwards.

it is still too easy to think that power tools will answer the problems, whereas we all really know that using hand tools makes us think about problems in a different way, to learn accuracy you have to use the tools.

you were asking about cutting thin slices, well when in model railway mode, one often has used thin ply etc, and i find a clamped straight edge
and a decent xacto or similar knife works well too.

i know it is an overworked phrase, but think outside the box, (or table saw :twisted: )

paul :wink:

 

[misterfish]

BTW if you scout around on the American fora you'll see a lot more near miss stories than here in the UK.

I wonder what about the ones that aren't "near misses", do our North American colleagues suffer proprtionally more injuries than here in UK (or EU), or are they more careful as they have a somewhat "more lax" attitude to safety.

I recently happened to be watching an episode of Hometime that I came across on the web where one of the guys was ripping a 45 degree bevel along a length of what looked like about 25mm x 25mm stock. The thing is he pushed it past the unguarded blade of his table saw using his fingers (literally right next to the blade). I cringed - to put it mildly. It seems he has been working with the Hometime team for years and yet still has 10 hand affixed digits.

I also remember years ago watching one of the Bob Vila building programs with his building partner (also called Bob if I remember rightly). The thing is that the partner was missing for a couple of programs and then returned to only give minor assistance for a few weeks due to a heavily bandaged lower arm, All they said was that there had been some sort of incident with the table saw!

MisterFish

 

[engineer one]

just got the latest axminster flyer today, and they have the bosch GTS10 table saw, stand and a "free" skill circular saw, all for £539.95 not sure about the widths that the bosch cuts, nor its fence capability, but might be worth a try. and you end up with the circular saw to play with too! :roll:

still think you are thinking too much about accuracy when you should be thinking about skill. you seem to be wanting to make things of "real wood" and thus hand tools really do offer decent advantages.
:twisted:
paul :wink:

 

[Adam]

Don't forget you may well need a zero clearance plate if you intending running particularly narrow strips past the blade.

Adam

 

[woden]

...And I use them mainly when I need to work with man-made boards, like MDF, for which hand tools are not really suitable. ...

Blast, I didn't realise MDF was hard to work with hand tools. That's what I was planing to make my shooting boards and stuff from. It's good and stable and I actually thought the material would be easy to work with. Why are hand tools unsuitable for MDF, is it due to the glue content dulling cutting edges?

Here's a marking gauge I made recently using hand tools - I suppose you could call that a small, fiddly piece ...

Nice work, Paul. I appreciate what you're saying and it's certainly something to bear in mind that you've been working with wood for decades without either a table saw or bandsaw. I think that when I get back into this hobby again - when time/space permits - I'll hold off on the purchase of either a TS or BS and stick to hand saws to see how things go. But having said that I really can see myself investing in a table saw at some point. There's a lot of larger scale but quite rough woodwork that I could be doing for the garden/garage and for this a medium price TS would surely be ideal.

Of course, it's nice to have a full range of machinery as well as hand tools but if you have some good hand tools and learn how to sharpen and use them properly, you can achieve most of what you want to do.

This point brings me to another part of my problem with hand tools. I've just about learned to sharpen my edge tools like chisels and plane irons and strangely find this process quite satisfying but I'll be damned if I can do the same with handsaws. There my attempts at sharpening have come up less than wobbly. One of the things that appeals about a table saw is that I know someone that can get blades sharpened for me. So once I've made the initial investment and bought a decent freud blade(s) I'd never have to worry about bluntness. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone locally (I live in the back end of beyond in western Northern Ireland) that sharpens handsaws. And for someone like me this sustainability, keeping things sharp long term, is very important. I like the idea of investing in a tool, blades, etc. that I'll be able to use properly for years to come.

When it comes to handsaws this stumbling block of sustainability raises its ugly head. If I pick up second hand saws on ebay I can't get them sharpened properly. Plus, having spent months reading about and teaching myself to sharpen my chisels and plane irons I'd rather get straight into woodworking next time rather than spend months doing the same hit and miss process with hand saws. So, as opposed to the second hand route, I could buy those electronically sharpened hard point saws for sale in local diy stores, Homebase and so on. But once they're blunt that's it - they can't be resharpened. There's no investment for the future with these tools and in the long run the cost would soon add up from repeatedly buying new saws. Then there's the final dead end of buying a sharp saw that can be resharpened from makers like Lie Nielsen or Pax and so on. But again, it'd be years before they were resharpened properly.

Don't get me wrong, this post might seem like a big whinge but in actual fact I love hand tools. One day I see myself doing lots with them. But for now and in the medium term I want to do as much woodworking as possible and that's where the likes of a table saw comes to the fore. I can get straight into cutting without having to master saw sharpening - something I fully intend to have a go at but as an aside to my woodworking not in place of it. My outlook is very much that power tools can get me up and running while I can master hand tools on the side for the years it takes to be proficient in them - both in sharpening and in use. Sort of like a day job to bring the money in while at the same time night classes for the future. That's not literally, of course, as I'm only a hobbyist.

it is still too easy to think that power tools will answer the problems, whereas we all really know that using hand tools makes us think about problems in a different way, to learn accuracy you have to use the tools.

Oh I realise that. It's just that when you're trying to learn and teach yourself, hand tools seem to be so much harder to master than the powered equivalents. Take cutting rebates across the grain, you can learn to do them well much faster with a router or table saw than with the fiddly exercise of renovating and gaining control over a rebate/fillister plane. I'd like to master the latter but I also want to be able to cut rebates sooner rather than later, if you see what I mean.

just got the latest axminster flyer today, and they have the bosch GTS10 table saw, stand and a "free" skill circular saw, all for £539.95 ...

How does that compare to a saw I've been interested in which is the SIP 10" table saw with a cast iron top that's been on sale on ebay for about £430? I don't really want to go over the £500 mark as I'd also have to buy good blades/fence etc.

 

[Benchwayze]

How do forum members go about cutting or trimming very small pieces or ripping thin strips safely. For this sort of work would a bandsaw be safer? They're not as accurate but I'm into hand planes and so wouldn't mind using shooting boards or just planing to get things shaped to the lines.

Hi Woden,

Sometimes for cross-cutting, you can grip the thin pieces between thicker, sacrificial pieces. Make them overlength, so you can use tape to hold the 'sandwich' firmly and safely and you don't have to cut through any of the sticky-tape. You might even be able to clamp the sandwich together or to a mitre-guide. It will depend on clearances on your table-saw.

If you are using the mitre-guide, your saw blade must be exactly parallel to the mitre-guide channel. If it isn't, you won't get a true angle on the workpiece, and the mitre-guide will 'apparently' change its angle to the blade, as you advance the cut.

Bandsaws..Definitely safer, and can be as accurate as you wish, with patience in setting them up.

I like to make bigger boxes!

Bon Chance mon ami. ccasion5:

John

 

[Paul Chapman]

Blast, I didn't realise MDF was hard to work with hand tools. That's what I was planing to make my shooting boards and stuff from. It's good and stable and I actually thought the material would be easy to work with. Why are hand tools unsuitable for MDF, is it due to the glue content dulling cutting edges?

Hi Woden,

Yes, MDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_density_fibreboard is not really suitable for working with hand tools. Most man-made boards are made up from wood in various forms and resins and stuff which are very hard on hand tools. Also it has no grain so just produces powdery stuff when you work on it. It really needs power tools with tungsten carbide cutters. And you should work with dust extraction and a face mask because the various resins are carcinogenic :shock: Excellent for making shooting boards and furniture because it's very stable.

Please don't think I am trying to put you off buying machinery - simply pointing out that there are other ways of doing woodwork if funds and/or space are at a premium. And for some jobs you will need hand tools even if you have all the machinery. You are right - learning to sharpen tools can be a bit of a slog but very satisfying and quite quick once you have learnt how to do it.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

PS If you are going to make a shooting board, there's some good stuff here http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/rocketscience.html

 

[Benchwayze]

Don't forget you may well need a zero clearance plate if you intending running particularly narrow strips past the blade.

Adam

Quite agree Adam,

The only problem is, the best way to make a 'zero-tolerance' insert for a table-saw, involves removing the guard and the riving knife and raising the spinning blade through the 'blank' insert. So it's face-guard and slowly does it...
:wink:

John

 

[Adam]

Quite agree Adam, The only problem is, the best way to make a 'zero-tolerance' insert for a table-saw, involves removing the guard and the riving knife and raising the spinning blade through the 'blank' insert. So it's face-guard and slowly does it... :wink: John

No need to be anywhere near it though whilst you turn the handle, but yes, normal safety precautions apply. If you are stood clear no risk of touching the blade. And once cut, you can adjust it to take a riving knife, by removing it, and chiseling away any unwanted areas.

Adam

 

[engineer one]

adam about the zero clearance inserts, i recently bought a copy of the Wood magazine hints and tips mag. and in their a guy was suggesting that you buy a spare insert from the saw manufacturer, and then using masking tape, to close the hole, fill it with epoxy, and when it is dry put it back on the saw and drive the blade up through it. the advantage of course is that you get to keep the adjusters etc, and of course when it gets to big, you re epoxy, and do it again. "we're going green :lol: proper recycling"

as for the bosch saw, not sure how it compares with the sip i have to say that personally i feel that at the lower end a cast iron table top is a bit of a waste. firstly, the cast iron is "green" and will settle in time, it goes rusty, and of course it costs money, so the motor may not be too stong. problem with sip is that no one seems to stock them so it is difficult to know anyone who has seen, let alone used one.

as for the bosch, i have the earlier dewalt equivalent and it is a decent small shop saw. my fence is pretty good, and i would think about the bosch in two ways, you can learn and then decide what you need to upgrade with, secondly, you get a "free" circular saw, so you kind of stay within your budget :twisted: :roll: (come on we all lie)

as for hand saws, have you thought about using the japanese pull saws, although they are not really re-sharpenable, they are relatively cheap to learn with.

think of sharpening as an adjuct to the work, not work in itself. when starting out, you need to get a feel for all your tools, and sharpening is a good way to learn, and of course to keep the tools sharp, you need to use the equipment after work.

mdf makes good basic furniture, and jigs, but does create dust and need machine tools. "real wood" is more organic, and you can be somewhat more flowing in its usage.

eventually we will help you :?

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

They are moved as required. I see no issues in mounting them in the mitre slot providing it is a T-slot of course.

I take it that if the mitre slot isn't a T slot there's a risk that the feather board would simply be lifted and thrown back with kickback?

If your rip fence ends just beyond the leading teeth of the saw blade (or certainly nor further in thatn the moddle of the blade of thin cuts) and your saw has a properly set-up riving knife then kickback won't be much of an issue. If you have no T-slot style mitre slot, just the wide shallow groove type which is more common on European kit, then you'll have the clamp or bolt the featherboard to the surface of the table.

Have you found Americans to be less safety conscious than woodworkers in the UK?.

Whilst I personally know a few exceptions, in general they seem a lot more gung-ho as regards safety (or its absence), IMHO, both trade and DIY. However, the gathering numbers of US-made/designed saws with "European" features such as sliding tables, proper riving knives (e.g. the new PowerMatic and the SawStop), etc indicates the beginning of a long-overdue awareness, I'd say.

To me it seems that they certainly put a huge emphasis on the use of the table saw. They seem to dispense with the blade guard a lot more while another difference with Europe is the lack of sliding tables and the use of splitters instead of riving knives. So maybe there's a contrast in the importance of safety too.

The reason the blade guard goes quickly on something like a Delta Unisaw is partly because it sits on top of a very inefficient splitter which goes out of adjustment very easily, doesn't provide adequate anti-kickback protection (unlike a riving knife) because it is too far back from the rear of the blade, and the illogical, to my mind and training, American insistance on using the much more dangerous long through rip fence which not only promotes certain kickback situations but also fouls the splitter guard on right-tilting saws. So, logical as ever they introduce left-tilting saws to (partly) overcome the problem and in doing so potentially create a few more safety issues, instead of going the way we have in Europe and going for a sliding, 2-level auxilliary rip fence. All this because the lawyer's probably reckon it's going to be cheaper to defend an existing low safety but "proven" design over a newer higher safety concept which is "unproven" (other than a few tens of thousands of European machines, of course, but they don't count 'coz they're here and we've only been exporting this stuff to the USA since the 1970s....... :roll: ) - or maybe it's just because it's cheaper not to pay to redesign a nearly 70 year old design (the Unisaw) other than to reduce the manufacturing cost. :roll:

The other thing more common in the USA is the stacked saw dado head, an item of tooling which I'm personally less than enamoured with (on both safety and quality of cut grounds), which cannot be used with a conventional riving knife/splitter and thus the guard. If you ever have to replace the splitter on something like a Unisaw and adjust it properly afterwards, it becomes obvious why so many people don't put them back on - it takes too long and is a real faff. So people get lazy and dispense with the guard and splitter altogether. Once again the latest PowerMatic and SawStop have addressed this bugbear, but it has taken way too long.

Oh, and the references to hand saws were to do with crosscutting and not ripping. I feel that for ripping thin strips/parts a bandsaw or table saw are the only two ways to go.

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

...... fill it with epoxy, and when it is dry put it back on the saw and drive the blade up through it. The advantage of course is that you get to keep the adjusters etc, and of course when it gets to big, you re epoxy, and do it again. "we're going green :lol: proper recycling"

Pity they've never read a 1920s, or earlier, tooling catalogue, then. Traditional rip saws were designed to use hard felt packings (BTW a true recycled material rather than a petrochemical derived epoxy resin) around the blades to provide just such a zero clearance system. That hard felt is still available these days, although I think it's mainly used in the horse world now.

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

so where do they stuff the hard felt to make them horses go faster scrit :lol: :twisted:

remember that the yanks tend to think history is last week
so they won't often look back to 1920's :roll:

have pm'd you

paul :wink:

 

[paulm]

as for the bosch saw, not sure how it compares with the sip i have to say that personally i feel that at the lower end a cast iron table top is a bit of a waste. firstly, the cast iron is "green" and will settle in time, it goes rusty, and of course it costs money, so the motor may not be too stong. problem with sip is that no one seems to stock them so it is difficult to know anyone who has seen, let alone used one.
paul :wink:

Thought I would pick up on that point if I may :roll: :lol:

There are many happy users of the SIP 10" cast iron table saw who have said as much in various posts on the forum, including me !

Run a search for it and you'll find plenty of satisfied users. The fence is excellent and the motor shows no sign of struggling or expiring !

I think they are great value for money and can't think of anything about them to dislike.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[engineer one]

see what happens when you actually dis something, people finally tell youwhat they think about something :lol: :twisted: :roll:

glad you are happy, and nice to know about the fence, that is really valuable knowledge, and will save our man some dosh at the get go. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[paulm]

see what happens when you actually dis something, people finally tell youwhat they think about something :lol: :twisted: :roll: :

To be expected really Paul when you put out unsubstantiated personal opinion like that. Wouldn't like to leave it uncorrected and let it mislead people.

glad you are happy, and nice to know about the fence, that is really valuable knowledge, and will save our man some dosh at the get go. :roll:

Don't appreciate nor see the point in your poor attempt at sarcasm if that's what it is supposed to be.

If you had personal experiences of problems with a piece of kit then fair enough. If you are just speculating and putting people off a good piece of kit for no reason (this guy or others who might read the thread) then I don't see that you are helping anybody very much.

Could easily say more but think I'll leave it there.

 

[engineer one]

what intregues me is the guy suggested he wanted to buy one of these at the get go, and then said he expected to have to replace the fence etc, and we get to page 3 before anyone confirms that it is a good piece of kit, and that the fence is ok.

that's not irony, that's trying to understand why if this saw is so popular, then no one had come to its aid until yourself :?

paul :wink:

 

[paulm]

Sorry Paul, didn't mean to jump down your throat, been a long day

Hadn't followed the thread really as been a bit preoccupied with other stuff........

Cheers, Paul