Sawing small or thin pieces??

[engineer one]

jump hard, no probs, we are trying to guide someone so.

and well sh*t happens
:?
paul :wink:

 

[woden]

Sometimes for cross-cutting, you can grip the thin pieces between thicker, sacrificial pieces. Make them overlength, so you can use tape to hold the 'sandwich'...

That’s an interesting piece of advice, Benchwayze. I'll certainly bear that in mind if I get my hands on a table saw.

Yes, MDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_density_fibreboard is not really suitable for working with hand tools. Most man-made boards are made up from wood in various forms and resins and stuff which are very hard on hand tools. ...

And there was me thinking that MDF looked pretty soft and harmless. Is it really as hard on hand tools as the stuff I already suspected of being no go areas like chipboard and plywood?

Thanks for the link to the shooting board stuff on that site – most interesting and there are a pile of other links to additional articles on the things. Much appreciated. This, however, brings me to the dilemma I find myself facing at times. In order to get the most out of hand tools you should use jigs like shooting boards and so on. Yet, the best materials, due to their stability, to make stuff like shooting boards out of are man-made sheet materials like MDF and plywood. But these shouldn’t be cut by hand tools so you’re back to needing power tools to facilitate the best use of your hand tools. I suppose you could use fairly cheap throw-away hand tools to make the shooting boards whilst saving your best tools but there’s surely no doubt that a table saw would be ideal for this job. The bevel required on the piece of wood used in a jig for putting mitres on the ends of boards would definitely best be cut with a TS.

A bit OT but just on the subject of shooting boards, if you’re using plywood does it really have to be of the most stable Baltic birch variety? Or can you get away with the cheapo Chinese stuff sold in the nearest timber merchants? I just wondered because the guy writing that article on Cornish Workshop alluded to the cheapo Chinese stuff when he wrote about using ‘Far Eastern’ ply but then in an article he links to the ply of choice is Baltic birch. Just wondering if it has to be the super duper stuff or will any old ply do (provided it’s not warped or out of joint)? And on that note, which is the more stable MDF or the hallowed Baltic birch ply? :?

... And you should work with dust extraction and a face mask because the various resins are carcinogenic...

I’m probably tempting fate here but I wonder just how much of a risk a part-time hobbyist like me is really going to run by using the stuff only now and again? And of course if you worry about it there seems to be a risk of cancer from everything nowadays. Wasn’t it Woody Allen that quipped, ‘life is carcinogenic, if you live long enough you’ll get cancer.’ :wink: Or maybe I’m just a cynic. :roll:

The only problem is, the best way to make a 'zero-tolerance' insert for a table-saw, involves removing the guard and the riving knife and raising the spinning blade through the 'blank' insert. ...

Just on that point aren’t there other instances where you have to remove the guard and riving knife? Like when using a dado set or even any type of trench cut where you’re running the wood over the top of the blade. Even for a single kerf trench (now that was madey uppy jargon if ever there's such a thing ) wouldn’t the riving knife have to be removed on many saws as it often reaches higher than the apex of the blade?

If your rip fence ends just beyond the leading teeth of the saw blade (or certainly nor further in thatn the moddle of the blade of thin cuts) and your saw has a properly set-up riving knife then kickback won't be much of an issue. ...

D’you know, at that auction where the Startrite band saw was up for sale there was this Wadkin saw bench with a large blade that looked to be about two foot in diameter and it had a fence that stopped at or about the leading teeth of the blade. Not knowing much about saws - and having only really studied the odd small TS on ebay - I was wondering at the time why the rip fence appeared to be so short. So it’s an anti kickback measure? If that’s the case why do the rip fences on many/most table saws continue right on past the blade? Would it be because the more fragile construction requires the fence to be clamped to a bar on the other side of the table for the sort of sturdiness that big Wadkin saw achieved with only one fixing?

... If you have no T-slot style mitre slot, just the wide shallow groove type which is more common on European kit, then you'll have the clamp or bolt the featherboard to the surface of the table.

Scrit, do you know if the SIP TS I mentioned earlier in the thread has a T-slot type mitre slot or just the shallow groove? It’s just that they come with a cast iron mitre gauge and I wouldn’t fancy that being thrown back at me.

The reason the blade guard goes quickly on something like a Delta Unisaw...

Thanks for posting all that, it was very illuminating. This lack of safety and avoidance of real concerns shines a very bad light on corporate America in this area. Penny pinching and a refusal to admit they were wrong seem to come out way ahead of safety as far as their concerned. I know someone that dives to do maintenance on oil rigs and from what he says the Yanks seem to be the same in that sphere - no safeguards, very gung-ho and hence a high death rate. By the way, do you develop these sorts of machines for a living or something? You’ve an amazing knowledge about this stuff.

... There are many happy users of the SIP 10" cast iron table saw who have said as much in various posts on the forum, including me ! ...

Hi, chisel. I take it you’ve found the SIP 10” to be a good investment then? I asked Scrit, but as an owner you’d know, are the mitre slots T type style slots? Also, how do you find the mitre gauge – someone else was saying it’s a bit loose. Finally, is the table on them as big as those on the Jet, Schepach or Kity table saws? It’s probably down to my lack of knowledge but I just thought that 1100 mm by 800 mm including the extensions didn’t sound that big.


Has anyone done a review of the SIP 10” TS?

 

[Paul Chapman]

Yes, MDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium_density_fibreboard is not really suitable for working with hand tools. Most man-made boards are made up from wood in various forms and resins and stuff which are very hard on hand tools. ...

And there was me thinking that MDF looked pretty soft and harmless. Is it really as hard on hand tools as the stuff I already suspected of being no go areas like chipboard and plywood?

Thanks for the link to the shooting board stuff on that site – most interesting and there are a pile of other links to additional articles on the things. Much appreciated. This, however, brings me to the dilemma I find myself facing at times. In order to get the most out of hand tools you should use jigs like shooting boards and so on. Yet, the best materials, due to their stability, to make stuff like shooting boards out of are man-made sheet materials like MDF and plywood. But these shouldn’t be cut by hand tools so you’re back to needing power tools to facilitate the best use of your hand tools. I suppose you could use fairly cheap throw-away hand tools to make the shooting boards whilst saving your best tools but there’s surely no doubt that a table saw would be ideal for this job. The bevel required on the piece of wood used in a jig for putting mitres on the ends of boards would definitely best be cut with a TS.

A bit OT but just on the subject of shooting boards, if you’re using plywood does it really have to be of the most stable Baltic birch variety? Or can you get away with the cheapo Chinese stuff sold in the nearest timber merchants? I just wondered because the guy writing that article on Cornish Workshop alluded to the cheapo Chinese stuff when he wrote about using ‘Far Eastern’ ply but then in an article he links to the ply of choice is Baltic birch. Just wondering if it has to be the super duper stuff or will any old ply do (provided it’s not warped or out of joint)? And on that note, which is the more stable MDF or the hallowed Baltic birch ply? :?

Hi Woden,

First things first, that guy Alf is in fact a girl (Alice) - don't worry, most people make that mistake at first. Her website is great so it's always worth a look if you want some information.

Most man-made boards start off flat but they will all warp if not stored properly. You can make a shooting board out of any material as long as it's flat - in the old days they would have used solid wood. These days it's easier to use man-made boards for ease, convenience and stability. You can always use hand tools (like throw-away, hard-point saws) which are better at taking a bashing from the resins and stuff but power tools are best. I usually cut to rough size with a jigsaw then finish with a plunge router which gives a nice, 90 degree cut.

Do be careful with the dust from all man-made boards. If you can work out in the open that's good but inside the dust can hang around in the air and it can cause serious problems so use dust extraction and some sort of dust mask.

At the end of the day, choice of tools and materials is always going to be a dilemma. We all have limited budgets so I now adopt an attitude of make the best of what you have and buy stuff as you can afford it (but don't tell the wife ).

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Plywood and MDF are a bit different; plywood is still wood - MDF is dust and glue. As such plywood is a little bit harder on hand tools than solid wood (not least because you're dealing with long and end grain all at once) but it's perfectly manageable. I quite often use an old fashioned, resharpenable 10pt panel saw to cut ply and it does a smashing job without being rendered blunt as soon as the tooth touched the surface. Planing edges is no problem either. Fwiw Baltic Ply is nice to have but personally I've never had the luxury and manage okay.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Pete W]

I quite often use an old fashioned, resharpenable 10pt panel saw to cut ply and it does a smashing job

And, by way of offering an alternative method, I keep two cheap, modern hardpoint saws - a panel saw and a tenon saw - for cutting ply, chipboard, mdf and other nasty-but-useful materials. And my trusty, cheap modern Faithful block plane for truing up edges.

 

[woden]

First things first, that guy Alf is in fact a girl (Alice) - don't worry, most people make that mistake at first. Her website is great so it's always worth a look if you want some information.

Oops, sorry about that, especially to you, Alf. I actually already had an idea about Alf - said he in hushed tones as if there was something wrong with being a woman :wink: - from reading through the forum but didn't look around the Cornish Workshop site enough to make the connection.

These days it's easier to use man-made boards for ease, convenience and stability.

Definately, I think it would be such a waste to make jigs out of proper wood - much better to save that for stuff I want to make.

I will bear in mind what you're saying about the dust problem, Paul. I suppose if I do get a table saw some sort of dust extraction system would be a wise investment.

As such plywood is a little bit harder on hand tools than solid wood (not least because you're dealing with long and end grain all at once) but it's perfectly manageable.

Again, apologies for assuming a bloke was responsible for Cornish Workshop. So plywood can be tackled even with your best hand tools? Does the glue not add a bit to its toughness as well?

Fwiw Baltic Ply is nice to have but personally I've never had the luxury and manage okay.

Well if someone like yourself doesn't use Baltic ply then there's hardly any point in me buying it either. I take it the shooting board shown on Cornish Workshop was made from cheapo Chinese ply?

Alf, how do you do most of your sawing - with handsaws or the table saw?

 

[Alf]

So plywood can be tackled even with your best hand tools? Does the glue not add a bit to its toughness as well?

Well you can use your best tools... Personally I try to avoid it more out of respect for expensive tools as much as because of any ill effects caused to them. We constantly advise the newbie to "buy the best" but there is something to be said for starting with a couple of "lesser quality" tools - you can make your mistakes with less angst, and you have something to use on ply and other rough work when you upgrade.

And yes, the glue adds a bit of extra difficulty - but no worse than some of the more tool-testing solid woods. Sorry, I was sort of assuming that was a "given"

I take it the shooting board shown on Cornish Workshop was made from cheapo Chinese ply?

Yep. Not so cheap these days

Alf, how do you do most of your sawing - with handsaws or the table saw?

Mainly the bandsaw actually - but then I don't use many sheet goods as a rule. Just recently I did dis-entomb the tablesaur half of my combi machine, simply 'cos I did have rather more ply to cut up than I really wanted to do by hand, but for the odd bit for this and that it's not worth either setting up the T/S or digging out the circular saw - in the time it takes to line up I could have done the thing by hand anyway. But that's just me and my particular set up.

Cheers, Alf