Saw stop ( USA )

[HamsterJam]

Been having the same/similar discussion here in the states on another forum.
My position is that I'm personally not adverse to a blade stopping technology of some kind getting mandated on all saws.
Should it be SawStop, absolutely not.
There are other systems that are non destructive that are just as effective.
SS has had an effective monopoly with their "web of patents". They've sued anyone and anything they didn't agree with and yet they still play the victim.

Bosch designed a resettable blade retraction system for site saws similar to SawStop called REAXX.
IIRC it was probably too similar to SawStop who forced Bosch to withdraw it from the market. Shame as this could have benefited many site workers and hobbyists.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Make your mind up. You said "My point was that the quality of students is much lesser than it once was."

Because as I said, "in the last twenty years or so there's been a big drive in schools to force school leavers into university even if their GCSE results were quite lacklustre so we're getting far fewer capable individuals coming into colleges", hence why "the quality of students is much lesser than it once was" because technical colleges are now only getting the lower end of mental capacity in students, practically anyone above a very lowly set bar goes to university.

I don't think you'd get into University with just 4 'O' levels.
The absolute minimum is 5 O levels or equivalent, including Maths and English, plus 2 A levels, though special circumstances and other considerations can be taken into account.

You would be very surprised how many people manage to get into universities with barely any GCSEs via the "Clearing" system, which is designed to fill as many university spots as possible as again, they get paid large amounts of government grants for students taken on and passed.

 

[Jacob]

....

You would be very surprised how many people manage to get into universities with barely any GCSEs via the "Clearing" system, which is designed to fill as many university spots as possible as again, they get paid large amounts of government grants for students taken on and passed.

Yes I would be surprised because I don't think it is true, certainly not down to just 4 O levels.
The big issue is government cost-cutting in education and training overall, plus brexit causing massive skill shortage.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Yes I would be surprised because I don't think it is true, certainly not down to just 4 O levels.

You don't think it's true, which insinuates you don't actually know what you're talking about and are just spouting nonsense as usual. O Levels haven't been relevant for at least 30 years, and it's generally accepted that it was much more difficult to attain a good O level rather than a good modern GCSE though they hold much the same power for getting into University. You only have to look at the numbers to see this, more uptake to universities than ever before, much higher grades of GCSEs and A-Levels given out than ever before, but this doesn't coincide with the population getting more intelligent overall as that's only a very marginal increase, it's that the education is being watered down to suit an agenda. If you were to take your British qualifications and tried to get a university placement or job in most of mainland Europe they would literally laugh at you because they view our qualifications as way below standard.

The big issue is government cost-cutting in education and training overall, plus brexit causing massive skill shortage.

There's a lot more money in education and training than ever before, it just gets squandered massively with the sheer amount of bureaucracy in these establishments and spending on ridiculous vanity projects rather than actually educating people.

 

[Spectric]

but the problem is that in the last twenty years or so there's been a big drive in schools to force school leavers into university even if their GCSE results were quite lacklustre so we're getting far fewer capable individuals coming into colleges to join the trades in general.

A massive failure in the UK's education system, they have ignored the fact that we are all different and some people will be academic whilst others are good with there hands and not number crunching. A good system would filter people in the right direction but we have closed our technical colleges and put way to much emphasis on getting a degree even if it is in flower arranging and in the process devalued the degree.

It is insane to imagine that 50% of current students are worthy of a University education. That is only possible if you dumb down for all.

That would suggest that we are now better educated than say thirty years ago and we know that is not the case, it has been found that the attention span of kids today is almost zero due to phones and there ability at basic maths is dire. If you think about this then basic numeracy was common because even a shop worker had to comprehend basic maths unlike today when the cash register does everything.

 

[Spectric]

You would be very surprised how many people manage to get into universities with barely any GCSEs via the "Clearing" system, which is designed to fill as many university spots as possible

That comes down to bhums on seats, empty places do not make money and so any bhum will do if it pays so move the goal post and at the last minute just fill empty seats with someone. I would think the only obvious exceptions would be places like Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh and Loughborough .

 

[Jacob]

.......


There's a lot more money in education and training than ever before,

Completely untrue. Education budgets have been reduced steadily for years, along with all other public services
This is just the recent state of affairs:
https://neu.org.uk/latest/press-releases/school-cuts-relaunch

......it just gets squandered massively with the sheer amount of bureaucracy in these establishments and spending on ridiculous vanity projects rather than actually educating people.

If true largely a result of the ideological re/disorganisation of education since 1979.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Completely untrue. Education budgets have been reduced steadily for years, along with all other public services

A complete fabricated nonsense, it was much the same when I was in school through the ‘40s and ‘50s, we couldn’t have new sports equipment due to “funding cuts”! If these cuts have been going on for the last 70 years surely there would be no money left decades ago?

When I was lecturing in the ‘80s, we had chalkboards, ancient woodworking machinery even by that time, and rudimentary hand tools for the carpentry and joinery students with most of the tools being their own that they bought with their apprenticeship wage, these days they have interactive whiteboards, modern woodworking machinery with all the modern conventions because of “regulations”, and a dearth of very expensive power tools, the local college where I live now uses exclusively Festool power tools, where are the “budget cuts” there? Teaching the subject is more expensive than its ever been and yet it’s still being funded somehow.

 

[Jacob]

A complete fabricated nonsense, it was much the same when I was in school through the ‘40s and ‘50s, we couldn’t have new sports equipment due to “funding cuts”! If these cuts have been going on for the last 70 years surely there would be no money left decades ago?

When I was lecturing in the ‘80s, we had chalkboards, ancient woodworking machinery even by that time, and rudimentary hand tools for the carpentry and joinery students with most of the tools being their own that they bought with their apprenticeship wage, these days they have interactive whiteboards, modern woodworking machinery with all the modern conventions because of “regulations”, and a dearth of very expensive power tools, the local college where I live now uses exclusively Festool power tools, where are the “budget cuts” there? Teaching the subject is more expensive than its ever been and yet it’s still being funded somehow.

Cuts in facilities i.e funding cuts below required for maintaining standards. Cuts in maintenance, building, repair (RAACS). Reduced grants, increased fees instead.... etc etc

Not a simple picture but here's a graph from one angle. Slight improveents under Labour but downhill at the moment. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/GBR/united-kingdom/education-spending

 

[Sgian Dubh]

You only have to compare older and modern City and Guilds textbooks to see the difference, older ones were vast with in depth knowledge and technical information, nowadays it's only surface level information with the text being worded as if for children rather than young adults. You wouldn't give these individuals a copy of "Cut and Dried" for example as it would be a complete waste as it would go unread for being too technical for them to comprehend despite how clear and informative it is, a higher quality student however in that less than 10% category would find it invaluable.

I can't argue with the significantly higher level of knowledge and demonstrable practical ability required of those C&G learners back in the day compared to contemporary apprentices and their NVQs. I remember the work I had to undertake and the exams I took to get my level 3 C&G, and they were far more demanding than the modern NVQs. I was once told NVQ stood for Not Very Qualified, and perhaps there's something in that.

Funnily enough, regarding your comment about Cut & Dried, it's been a bit of a surprise at the number of joinery apprentices, or recently qualified joiners that have approached me and said something complimentary about it. When that's happened it's usually been at the Harrogate show. Slainte.

 

[TRITON]

When I started college, we were told(on the grapevine) that employers had been complaining about the technical skill of the graduating students was not up to par, and as such they made the college change the system so that all had to pass every part of the course with high marks on each unit/section. When I graduated, I was only one of about 7 or 8 people who passed everything, and we had a 4 out of 5 failure rate.

Going back to subsequent end of year exhibitions, I could see the college had stuck to that system and the level of work being produced by final year students was excellent and of a professional standard.

I think prior to my year they were more interested in the funding they got opposed to the quality of work and knowledge the students were gaining. Employers set them straight.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

When I was lecturing in the ‘80s, we had chalkboards, ancient woodworking machinery even by that time, and rudimentary hand tools for the carpentry and joinery students with most of the tools being their own that they bought with their apprenticeship wage, these days they have interactive whiteboards, modern woodworking machinery with all the modern conventions because of “regulations”, and a dearth of very expensive power tools, the local college where I live now uses exclusively Festool power tools, where are the “budget cuts” there? Teaching the subject is more expensive than its ever been and yet it’s still being funded somehow.

Nowadays I sometimes take on part-time and short term teaching of carpentry/joinery apprentices at FE colleges. My experience is that for the most part the fixed plant is usually reasonably good, but quite often it's been badly mistreated and poorly maintained. Power tools are usually in a shocking state, never Festool, and hand tools such as planes, chisels, marking tools, etc, are pitifully badly abused.

As to assessment you may have a point. A few years ago I was asked to supervise and assess the practical test of a group of bench joinery apprentices. Out of 18 apprentices I think I failed the submitted work of 12 or 13. This didn't go down well with my line manager who asked me what I could do about the marks I'd given, to which I said there's nothing I can do. This discussion went back and forth a bit and there was an implication that I'd been a bit harsh whereupon I said the work I failed didn't meet the standard required as set out in writing in the test's allowable tolerances. I left it that if my line manager was happy to do so, he could put his signature against the inferior work as meeting the required standard, but I wouldn't.

This occurred on the last day of the summer term, and funnily enough I wasn't contacted as the new academic year approached in September to ask if I'd like to continue with my part-time teaching role. I've no idea why, of course. Slainte.

 

[XTiffy]

As usual Jacob takes the bit and supplies his beloved graphs and proves nothing. My point was that the entry level for RN apprentices was 4 "O" levels or passing a RN entry exam at that level, at SIXTEEN, staying those extra two years for A levels meant that it was too late (entry for apprenticeship back in my day (1960s was 15 -17). The axe came in 2010, when it became impossible to recruit suitable men or women, even though the age range went up to 28. I have the exam results from the later years with much lower exam results than early years (1960s), With these exam results the Personal Selection Officer's comments were often scathing. I went to a London Comprehensive and had three good years of quality education and then my parents made the mistake of telling the school I was leaving at 15. This resulted in my being dumped in a class of rejects (the only other bright one was Billy Bonds who had an apprenticeship with Chartlton Athhletic at age 15, I think he did ok!). Luckily I worked in an electrical relay manufacturers and being in the Test Department, I had day release to attend college one day a week. I joined the RN at 16 years and eight months. Over the years I have coached family members and have seen the lowering of standards.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Funnily enough, regarding your comment about Cut & Dried, it's been a bit of a surprise at the number of joinery apprentices, or recently qualified joiners that have approached me with and said something complimentary about it. When that's happened it's usually been at the Harrogate show. Slainte.

I would suspect any apprentice or generally anyone in the trade that's attending Harrogate or similar shows is in the less than 10% category that I mentioned, very few take any more interest in their craft other than a means to generate income. You deserve the praise as it's an excellent textbook, particularly in this modern era where the internet informs and misinforms in equal measures so it's more important than ever to have correct and consise textbooks that are wholly true to the subject matter.

As to assessment you may have a point. A few years ago I was asked to supervise and assess the practical test of a group of bench joinery apprentices. Out of 18 apprentices I think I failed the submitted work of 12 or 13. This didn't go down well with my line manager who asked me what I could do about the marks I'd given, to which I said there's nothing I can do. This discussion went back and forth a bit and there was an implication that I'd been a bit harsh whereupon I said the work I failed didn't meet the standard required as set out in writing in the test's allowable tolerances. I left it that if my line manager was happy to do so, he could put his signature against the inferior work as meeting the required standard, but I wouldn't.

This is the difference between generating competent craftsmen and women as you were, and lessening the value of the qualification and flooding the trade with "qualified" imbiciles as your line manager was to suit their agenda of earning as much as possible and that of the goverment to get as many people in the trades as possible to boost numbers. It simply can't go on forever, we're seeing more and more problems with building sites not being able to meet standards to the point where new buildings are unsafe to live in due to extremely poor craftsmanship which we see on the news all the time, there was recently a case in Cambridge where eighty new homes were being demolished due to substandard foundations. You only have to take a tour of one of these sites and one of their "show homes" where everything should be perfect and see just how poorly put together they are, which isn't down to cost cutting but rather a lack of craftsmanship where they've had unskilled yet qualified labour in to do work but the work is done so poorly that it's not acceptable, and often in most cases a competent craftsman would've done a better job in less time and thus been more cost effective. The CSCS card scheme has been a complete failure, it was to ensure competency of craftsmen on the jobsite but there are far more incompetent individuals that hold a gold card than genuine craftsmen because there have been "shortcuts" to get a card to work on these sites, particularly for foreign labour which can be very good or equally very bad.

 

[Sam Kilby]

It’s absolutey insane to blame the teachers for this. That’s like blaming pensioners for the pension age going up, or blaming taxpayers when taxation rates go up.

There are several large underlying issues in the education sector that encourage schools to keep students on -
Money
Students having by government decree to be in full time education until 18 or possibly 19
Students having to continue to study gcse maths and English if they didn’t previously pass
There is also the academy system, and “t-levels” which both do a very strange very academically based version of vocational qualification. They do t levels in carpentry, but you wouldn’t see a carpentry firm choosing a t level candidate over an apprentice, ever.
Also apprenticeships are increasingly a burden to the firms. There are so few companies offering them now, as they have to pay the students whilst they attend college. Admittedly this is low in the first year, but 2nd year onward it’s minimum wage for their age.. so lots of the more capable student effectively end up making ip their own apprenticeship, studying “full time” (2 days per week) and trying to get a job part time the other 3 days.

Also incidentally a lot of teaching time and effort is spent ticking boxes (basically proving to the gov the college have been doing their job and deserve getting paid) which massively eats into valuable teaching time..

I think it’s a Tory government problem really. I don’t think fundamentally they like the college system, and would prefer it all to be done in schools, and seeing as none of them have ever done an apprenticeship, or even spoken to someone who has on a level they don’t understand that you can’t teach bricklaying in a school 3 hrs a week from someone who’s never worked on a site.

 

[Adam W.]

It is not possible to fail an NVQ, even though they make out that the grade is either pass/fail.

As I mentioned before ☝︎, assessors do not get paid for failing candidates.

 

[Jacob]

It’s absolutey insane to blame the teachers for this. That’s like blaming pensioners for the pension age going up, or blaming taxpayers when taxation rates go up.

There are several large underlying issues in the education sector that encourage schools to keep students on -
Money
Students having by government decree to be in full time education until 18 or possibly 19
Students having to continue to study gcse maths and English if they didn’t previously pass
There is also the academy system, and “t-levels” which both do a very strange very academically based version of vocational qualification. They do t levels in carpentry, but you wouldn’t see a carpentry firm choosing a t level candidate over an apprentice, ever.
Also apprenticeships are increasingly a burden to the firms. There are so few companies offering them now, as they have to pay the students whilst they attend college. Admittedly this is low in the first year, but 2nd year onward it’s minimum wage for their age.. so lots of the more capable student effectively end up making ip their own apprenticeship, studying “full time” (2 days per week) and trying to get a job part time the other 3 days.

Also incidentally a lot of teaching time and effort is spent ticking boxes (basically proving to the gov the college have been doing their job and deserve getting paid) which massively eats into valuable teaching time..

I think it’s a Tory government problem really. I don’t think fundamentally they like the college system, and would prefer it all to be done in schools, and seeing as none of them have ever done an apprenticeship, or even spoken to someone who has on a level they don’t understand that you can’t teach bricklaying in a school 3 hrs a week from someone who’s never worked on a site.

By blaming teachers all I meant was that the higher you go up the chain of command the more the responsibility.
So yes it’s a Tory government problem really. They are cutting or underfunding public spending everywhere and have foisted "austerity" on us as an excuse. You can see tory policy at work everywhere, from potholes in the road upwards.

 

[worn thumbs]

Interesting and fairly predictable comments about the quality of youngsters entering the workplace.I've found them to cover the entire spectrum from really good to utterly useless.A large part of the "problem" is the state of technical education in our schools and it isn't just a biased opinion of mine,my neighbour recently retired from teaching and despaired of the knowledge being transmitted in this department.I know from talking to work experience kids that matters such as designing pizza boxes soak up far too much time.They are neither dangerous in terms of using sharp tools nor useful beyond about half an hour's worth of time.A friend who sacrificed a few weeks worth of Wednesday mornings to help with a group project found the practical ability of the teacher responsible for the project to be so low that he asked a retired tradesman to join him from week 2 of the project and suddenly things moved forward.

Clearly the kids won't learn things the teacher doesn't know and it doesn't seem that practical subjects have a particularly high status in education-I expect wails of protest for that.I do remember having woodwork teachers who had spent a few years on the bench and knew the topic but that route to teaching seems to have withered.

It is a bit of a tradition for the mature to lament the youth and I have experienced this myself as the second foreman I worked with had a major thing about it and never lost the opportunity to criticise myself or the other lads solely on the basis of age.I found him a quote about the younger generation losing the use of their hands and he read it with enormous approval.Then I pointed out that it had been written in the late nineteenth century....