SAW FILES TESTS - 23 files tested by 3 experienced filers
- Thread starter FenceFurniture
- Start date
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Unfortunately though, I can't upload it here, as PDFs are not a valid extension. So, could somebody who is NOT a member of the Australian Forum (which absolutely rocks for functionality and generosity of spirit , btw) try to download it from the following link and tell me if it's possible please?
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/saw- ... ost1683198
Success. You do have to join the Forum, bit of a faff but not more than other fora. The link you gave didn't go straight to the post, but a search on SAW FILES TEST REPORT plus FenceFurniture found it easily. The PDF is very good with all tables and figures clear. On the forum I could not see the figures and tables, so the download is well worth while.
My congrats also on a very nice and comprehensive piece of work.
Keith
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/saw- ... ost1683198
Success. You do have to join the Forum, bit of a faff but not more than other fora. The link you gave didn't go straight to the post, but a search on SAW FILES TEST REPORT plus FenceFurniture found it easily. The PDF is very good with all tables and figures clear. On the forum I could not see the figures and tables, so the download is well worth while.
My congrats also on a very nice and comprehensive piece of work.
Keith
MusicMan":nxviyv0s said:
it's an excellent forum. In the states here, I've been unsuccessful at getting a few notable folks to join it because they "can't find which forum they'd actually go to", but the group there is excellent. Well worth the trouble.
FenceFurniture
Established Member
You still banging on about that 6 years later? You need to get your facts straight bud, before you spew out ill-informed opinions.D_W":heamwmrm said:
Yeah, you took some heat from the original poster...AFTER you put out more than plenty of your own. And who was it again that was motivated enough to start a thread "Disappointed with Grobet USA files"? (readers, a simple search-engine of that title on the internet will turn it up). In post number 12 of that thread, the OP (with familiar initials) refers to the previous post about Swiss made Grobet files sold by LN or LV. "Those are good files." the OP declares.
Well, the OP doesn't know what he's talking about when he says that. They are neither good, nor Swiss. They are crap, and Indian or Chinese. In fact, it was solely due to my research efforts, and direct lobbying, that Lee Valley stopped selling them!! And yes, I have the email trail that proves what I've just said. Lee Valley were gobsmacked that they had been hoodwinked - they were absolutely certain that the files were Swiss made - after all, they were despatched from Switzerland! Paperwork means nothing.
Outside of the "Money is King" bubble there are some people who just want to get a result, one way or another. THAT was my motive, and if we had found files worth a damn, that were also consistent, and that covered the range of commonly used saws, then that would have been job done. Oh yeah, and available - easily found and sourced - would have been good, and without any obfuscation or bullsh in the marketing (and by that I mean "Brand X USA" where the USA part only means that's where they post them to.....). It would also be nice to be able to buy the full range from one source rather than fooling around all over the place.
However, given that those criteria were not able to be met, I did THEN embark upon trying to find a manufacturer who could produce a range of quality tools. And I would certainly have accepted compensation for that in some form, AND I would have accepted it whilst ever there were sales. :roll: After all, even by that point I had spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on the project.
The problem with that would be....what, exactly D_W? If it had come to pass, then there would have been a declaration of pecuniary interest BY DEFAULT, because I would have been selling (or at least wholesaling) them in Australia. They would also have been branded in such a way that it was VERY obvious who was behind them, but that information remains commercial in confidence. At the time I saw no reason whatsoever to make any declaration of pecuniary interest, because there was none, and it was only a remote possibility that there ever might have been.
To be abundantly clear, the testing, and polling, showed to us that there was much dissatisfaction with what was available, and a decision was made to attempt to fill that gap. You may need to get over that. You may also need to get over what has been described as my being an Agent or representative of Liogier. I am nothing of the sort - I have organised a number (12?) group buys of their rasps and files for Australian forum members - that makes me a Liogier customer or client. They all got an excellent discount and I got some free rasps and files. Everyone who participated was aware of that (many of them wanted to make sure that I DID get something). Problem? Couldn't have been for them, given the amount of thanks that I receive for it, and other group buys. If it's a problem for other non-participators ...then it's a problem for other non-participators, and I couldn't care less. Just last month one of the group buy participants sent me a timber gift for having done so many over the years.
(crikey, at one point some idiot - not D_W - even suggested that I was the Worldwide Liogier rep getting a cut from every sale! HA! I wish!)
Given that there are a single digit number of file factories in the world (excluding India and China), and given that I felt I could only trust one of them to produce what was required, I approached Liogier. As it turned out, it was unable to be made to happen.
"bahco files are superb in the sizes available" Well, not everyone thinks so, and not everyone thinks they are consistent. They are also not available in small enough sizes. Complaints of teeth snapping off, etc.
I do hope that is once and for all cleared up.
You do realize, and this seems simple to me, that you stated that if the liogier bits would've come to fruition, you would have been wholesaling them, and describe it as not a conflict unless it materialized. That's odd.
Here's why it's odd.
Let's say a lobbyist goes to a local government, working on contingency for a power generation company. He advocates for economic development due to lack of power for the local residents, or instability. After all is said and done, he makes a public disclosure that he's been paid a contingency fee and will gain a royalty, but he didn't prior while lobbying. What do you think the local residents would think if he said "I wasn't paid at the time, but of course if it went through, i would be the one getting paid for it. Therefore, I didn't need to make a disclosure".
Personally, I think that's an issue. Do I think you would get rich? No, but do I think it made you biased before i knew what you were pushing and said I don't think there's a great issue.
You are correct that I was one of the folks who had suitable grobet files, and then didn't as they had changed either manufacturer or quality standards, and thus I tried bahco and that was that.
Someone new to this hobby may read your report with enthusiasm and fret "oh my God, my hobby is under attack and I will never be able to file saws, what will I do?" It's not so. They may read the discussion of the shape of files, size of corners, or fret over the lack of taper on a grobet file. It doesn't matter - it makes no practical difference, especially once someone settles on a particular file for a particular saw.
They may sharpen their saws with bahco files that cost $6 per and sharpen a given saw 10 times, and be swayed by your report that they absolutely must pay more for a liogier file had it become available (it would've been a poor spending choice).
It is important for hand toolers to understand reality in context. If someone is going to sharpen saws periodically, it will not matter to them that expert user A and B who cut teeth into a saw each day aren't satisfied with a given file (that will sharpen a saw ten times).
This same kind of fanaticism is what gets us into non-users or beginners posting SEM pictures of edges and everyone immediately opens their wallets looking to buy their way out of the crisis that they didn't know about.
In reality, the issue was a non issue for almost everyone. If liogier had come to market with files regularity, that would've been fine. if they had been more expensive than other options, and intermittently made at that, along with the oft-said obligation to support boutique companies, it would've been a negative.
That would've been the viewpoint of users.
Just by chance, and I wasn't looking today, but by chance, jim bode had a set of either ten or a dozen 7 inch regular taper vintage simonds files for $28. Unused. That includes shipping. i bought them. Despite the crisis.
Here's why it's odd.
Let's say a lobbyist goes to a local government, working on contingency for a power generation company. He advocates for economic development due to lack of power for the local residents, or instability. After all is said and done, he makes a public disclosure that he's been paid a contingency fee and will gain a royalty, but he didn't prior while lobbying. What do you think the local residents would think if he said "I wasn't paid at the time, but of course if it went through, i would be the one getting paid for it. Therefore, I didn't need to make a disclosure".
Personally, I think that's an issue. Do I think you would get rich? No, but do I think it made you biased before i knew what you were pushing and said I don't think there's a great issue.
You are correct that I was one of the folks who had suitable grobet files, and then didn't as they had changed either manufacturer or quality standards, and thus I tried bahco and that was that.
Someone new to this hobby may read your report with enthusiasm and fret "oh my God, my hobby is under attack and I will never be able to file saws, what will I do?" It's not so. They may read the discussion of the shape of files, size of corners, or fret over the lack of taper on a grobet file. It doesn't matter - it makes no practical difference, especially once someone settles on a particular file for a particular saw.
They may sharpen their saws with bahco files that cost $6 per and sharpen a given saw 10 times, and be swayed by your report that they absolutely must pay more for a liogier file had it become available (it would've been a poor spending choice).
It is important for hand toolers to understand reality in context. If someone is going to sharpen saws periodically, it will not matter to them that expert user A and B who cut teeth into a saw each day aren't satisfied with a given file (that will sharpen a saw ten times).
This same kind of fanaticism is what gets us into non-users or beginners posting SEM pictures of edges and everyone immediately opens their wallets looking to buy their way out of the crisis that they didn't know about.
In reality, the issue was a non issue for almost everyone. If liogier had come to market with files regularity, that would've been fine. if they had been more expensive than other options, and intermittently made at that, along with the oft-said obligation to support boutique companies, it would've been a negative.
That would've been the viewpoint of users.
Just by chance, and I wasn't looking today, but by chance, jim bode had a set of either ten or a dozen 7 inch regular taper vintage simonds files for $28. Unused. That includes shipping. i bought them. Despite the crisis.
Simply put having stated that, I hope you realize how it looks when you drum up a controversy about a product that you're trying to have someone else make so that you will wholesale them and label them commercially to identify you. It boggles the mind as you see that as being the same as having no interest. You did manage to get a lot of newbies excited. I threw away my grobet usa files - they were a letdown. I don't remember if I got a refund of them or not, but they were about $36 for the dozen through amazon. I probably did, and it was worth advising people not to get them. It took little time to find a drop shipper selling bahco files and that was that.
Since then, the mex nicholson files have again become passable. I guess those things didn't fit the plan that you'd hoped for.
I didn't get paid to buy and try anything, nor did I have any expectation of it, and it took an ungodly long time for you to admit the part that you just admitted here - if you'd have been able to make it pan out (and create enough false controversy to support it), you would've gotten credit commercially as well as for wholesaling what you were beating a drum about. Why did it take so long for you to admit that? I think you knew what it suggested.
Since then, the mex nicholson files have again become passable. I guess those things didn't fit the plan that you'd hoped for.
I didn't get paid to buy and try anything, nor did I have any expectation of it, and it took an ungodly long time for you to admit the part that you just admitted here - if you'd have been able to make it pan out (and create enough false controversy to support it), you would've gotten credit commercially as well as for wholesaling what you were beating a drum about. Why did it take so long for you to admit that? I think you knew what it suggested.
FenceFurniture
Established Member
And here's why your logic is wrong: I wasn't working on contingency for anyone when the testing was done and the report was written. It was not discussed with Liogier until after that. Even then I had to convince them that there would be enough interest. When the petition got to 500 signatures they started to express some interest.D_W":3101f9mo said:
You seem to be blind to the fact that there were two stages: the first was trying to sort out which files were satisfactory, and the second was trying to get some made when the problems of the first stage came to light. I suggest that you put a commercial hat on: why would I go out and telegraph what I was subsequently trying to do (and potentially give someone else a commercial advantage)? That would just be stupid. (as it was there was a chap - a former manufacturer in Switzerland - who was keen to get some files made for me in Italy - but that would have just added another layer to the cost, so I declined)
In any event, it was 6 years ago and the whole project died about a year after that. Why so upset about it still? Relax! If Mexican Nicholsons have graduated to "passable" for you then that's great - but is subsequential to what was around in 2013. "Passable" doesn't sound like much of a benchmark to aspire to though, but then you have said many times in many threads on various fora that you hate spending more than the bare minimum. Not everyone is of that mindset.
Anyhoo, I'm sure you'll need to have a customary last word. OTOH, I'm done with engaging with you - I've stated my case and position - if you want to take exception to that then go for your life. I have corrected your misrepresentations of me (again) and that's all I need to do.
Or relax (pssst...it's over... years ago).
You were attempting to get people excited about something you would have a commercial interest in, now you've switched to saying you wouldn't say so because it could've given someone else an advantage to steal your thunder (or more clearly, you were protecting your potential pile).
This isn't difficult to understand, but I suspected all along that you were driven either by ego or potential profit. Even that isn't a problem if you can just manage to be up front and honest about pushing the study and supposed petition for your own interests. You're engrossed in coming up with justification now.
This is similar to a saw plate study with bad data in it that culminated in another "study" magnate trying to sell saw parts and saws. It's deceptive, and when it's for small dollars, it's petty. We expect that kind of thing in banner ads, not in forum posts.
I'm sure you're aware that on smc, your post would have been removed immediately if you'd have disclosed your motive. You drummed up a lot of pointless interest from those who know little, nothing came of it and your lack of forthrightness even when you were asked directly about your interest in the whole debacle that made little sense without the potential gain didn't yield anything.
We have an obligation to be honest and forthright with each other and communicate precisely when able. It applies to you as well as anyone else.
This isn't difficult to understand, but I suspected all along that you were driven either by ego or potential profit. Even that isn't a problem if you can just manage to be up front and honest about pushing the study and supposed petition for your own interests. You're engrossed in coming up with justification now.
This is similar to a saw plate study with bad data in it that culminated in another "study" magnate trying to sell saw parts and saws. It's deceptive, and when it's for small dollars, it's petty. We expect that kind of thing in banner ads, not in forum posts.
I'm sure you're aware that on smc, your post would have been removed immediately if you'd have disclosed your motive. You drummed up a lot of pointless interest from those who know little, nothing came of it and your lack of forthrightness even when you were asked directly about your interest in the whole debacle that made little sense without the potential gain didn't yield anything.
We have an obligation to be honest and forthright with each other and communicate precisely when able. It applies to you as well as anyone else.
