Riots - Bring on the army

[Dibs-h]

Given how litagious a society the US is, I suspect that a series of warnings are given - news reports, loud hailers, warning shots and then as soon as the 1st individual is shot - the rest run like hell!

I wouldn't for one minute advocate dealing with rioters\looters ala Assad\Gadaffi.

Given the probability of how it would be dealt with in the US - the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.

Dibs

 

[studders]

Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?

 

[Noel]

Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?

Nearest ones are in Belgium or NI. Mrs T May has basically said England is much too good too use water cannon -
"I don’t think anybody wants to see water cannon used on the streets of Britain because we have a different attitude to the culture of policing here. We police by consent and it depends on that trust between the police and the public.”

 

[woodbloke]

... the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.

Dibs

...and therein lies the nub. How do you calculate what those 'remote' chances are? If your son or daughter was by chance caught up in it, say coming home from work, would you like the police to open fire? I suspect not, so please, let's not go down the sactioned use of lethal force route. To me, it's the same sort of arguement regarding capital punishement. We had the inate good sense years ago to ban it as there was always the remote chance that the wrong man would get hung...and it did happen, more than once - Rob

 

[RogerS]

... the chances of an innocent person getting shot is quite high, if they are wearing a balaclava or have their face covered (or not), kicking a shop window in and helping themselves to goods. Otherwise remote.

Dibs

...and therein lies the nub. How do you calculate what those 'remote' chances are? If your son or daughter was by chance caught up in it, say coming home from work, would you like the police to open fire? I suspect not, so please, let's not go down the sactioned use of lethal force route. To me, it's the same sort of arguement regarding capital punishement. We had the inate good sense years ago to ban it as there was always the remote chance that the wrong man would get hung...and it did happen, more than once - Rob

But the thing is Rob that these days with DNA evidence, the chances of a miscarriage of justice are much less.

Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?

 

[JMcK]

Why don't we have Water Cannons for these situations, or do we but they are not being used?

The Met have had, may still have, water cannon. They were evaluated and it was decided not to use them. Apart from political considerations there are practical ones too. Superficially attractive they are not all they are cracked up to be. The main problem with them is that at an effective pressure (which can cause injury) they use all their water very, very quickly and then become a liability as a vulnerable vehicle.

The use by other nations appears to be less so nowadays.

 

[woodbloke]

Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?

Rog, looking at the pics on the Beeb, I can feel my blood boil just the same as you. Don't forget, I work with and am surrounded by blokes wearing 'the green' (even as I type this) and the rioting images are on the plasma screens right in front of me. But...not once have I heard them say that sending in the army (or even the use of lethal force) is the right way to do it. At best, the use of lethal force is a natural 'knee jerk' reaction where other considerations haven't been adequately thought through. The last time the British Army was deployed in anger on the streets of the capital was the Seige of Sydney Street some one hundred years ago and I think that it's the very last option that HMG would opt for - Rob

 

[Anonymous]

prevention is better than cure, the use of lethal force i don't condone, but rounding up the culprits and thrown into hard labour camps i do!!

After looking at the pics it clearly shows that it is a mix of races involved.

 

[Doug B]

If the original peaceful protest started because of the shooting of one bloke, how is shooting more going to calm the situation?

I accept things are now nothing to do with that original protest but i cannot see how more violence will solve anything, more police on the streets is what was need straight away, thankfully from the sounds of things that will be happening tonight.

 

[woodbloke]

If the original peaceful protest started because of the shooting of one bloke, how is shooting more going to calm the situation?

I accept things are now nothing to do with that original protest but i cannot see how more violence will solve anything, more police on the streets is what was need straight away, thankfully from the sounds of things that will be happening tonight.

Absolutely agree Doug - Rob

 

[Dibs-h]

Civility can be measured in how a society treats those worse off or vunerable. Not how it lets itself be walked over by such individuals.

Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.

My 2c worth

Dibs

 

[studders]

Mrs T May has basically said.....
"I don’t think anybody wants to see water cannon used on the streets of Britain because we have a different attitude to the culture of policing here. We police by consent and it depends on that trust between the police and the public.”

Yeah right'o Mrs, good to see you're in touch with reality. :roll:

 

[woodbloke]

Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.

Dibs

Appreciate it's your 2 euros worth, but you appear to have a short memory. Remember 'Bloody Sunday' and the ensuing aftermath? This was the last time that the British Army opened fire on the general populace (for whatever reason)...are you saying that you really want to live with the possible consequences of the same sort of event in mainland UK? God help us if you do - Rob

 

[studders]

Meant to add, the riots are now right on my doorstep. :shock:
The traders around here are dreading the worst tonight. Some want to form vigilante groups to defend their shops, others, mostly the major stores, have gone home early.

 

[Dibs-h]

Sanctioning lethal force is not a knee jerk reaction but the statement to a group of society that seem to be becoming more brazen, that a line has been crossed and there is no going back.

Dibs

Appreciate it's your 2 euros worth, but you appear to have a short memory. Remember 'Bloody Sunday' and the ensuing aftermath? This was the last time that the British Army opened fire on the general populace (for whatever reason)...are you saying that you really want to live with the possible consequences of the same sort of event in mainland UK? God help us if you do - Rob

Rob

What I'm saying is that standing by and watching them loot and burn, in the hope that CCTV got their face and you'll pick them up afterwards is not exactly sending the right message, and I certainly aren't advocating anything like NI over in the mainland.

But how the US National Guard deal with looters might not be such a bad idea. IIRC they don't open fire en-masse and gun laws are far more liberal there than here.

If segments of society realise that you will turn the other cheek and not do anything - they aren't likely to say please & thank you as they help themselves.

Dibs

 

[Doug B]

But how the US National Guard deal with looters might not be such a bad idea. IIRC they don't open fire en-masse and gun laws are far more liberal there than here.

I think the fact that hand guns can be legally owned in America by the populous makes there use by the police & army more acceptable to that populous.

I accept we need train gun officers but i wouldn`t want every police officer armed with a gun, that`s a very slippery slope.

At the end of the day it`s the law that needs to deal with these thugs & the police are the best people to enforce that. From the sounds of things it`s already happening with arrests & confiscation of stolen property, i just hope they receive long sentences.

 

[RogerS]

Regarding lethal use of force, the nub seems to me quite clear. Hoodie, kicking in a window, walking out of the window with a TV? How many innocent people do that?

Rog, looking at the pics on the Beeb, I can feel my blood boil just the same as you. Don't forget, I work with and am surrounded by blokes wearing 'the green' (even as I type this) and the rioting images are on the plasma screens right in front of me. But...not once have I heard them say that sending in the army (or even the use of lethal force) is the right way to do it. At best, the use of lethal force is a natural 'knee jerk' reaction where other considerations haven't been adequately thought through. The last time the British Army was deployed in anger on the streets of the capital was the Seige of Sydney Street some one hundred years ago and I think that it's the very last option that HMG would opt for - Rob

There was an army guy on R4 this lunchtime advocating lethal force!

 

[tomatwark]

I was not saying go in and machine gun them as would happen in other countries.

The point is, if you threaten them with being shot for looting, alot of the hangers on would disappear.

There is no easy solution, everyone has its problems, but remember there are innocent people being burnt out of their homes and businesses by a small group of people who are out of control and know that if they are caught they will get 20 hours community service halved for good behavior.

This country has become to soft and it is time that things are toughened up for these thugs.

Tom

 

[Dibs-h]

I think the fact that hand guns can be legally owned in America by the populous makes there use by the police & army more acceptable to that populous.

I can see what you mean.

I accept we need train gun officers but i wouldn`t want every police officer armed with a gun, that`s a very slippery slope.

Dear God - I would not want that. Every plod with a gun & given there are some who you wonder how on earth he\she got the job - that's a nightmare state!

At the end of the day it`s the law that needs to deal with these thugs & the police are the best people to enforce that. From the sounds of things it`s already happening with arrests & confiscation of stolen property, i just hope they receive long sentences.

The law is almost an ass. Sentences are already being reduced as prisons can't cope - 12 months sentence, out in 3. The thing with wanton looting and burning - what percentage will never be caught?

I've would never advocate indiscrimate shooting - but carefully targeted shooting, just the 1 or 2 would have a phenominal affect on the looters\arsonists.

These acts that we are seeing have nothing to do with the Duggan chap - this is now feral kids seeing that the Police can't do anything, so lets take advantage.

Yes there are individual issues, liberties, etc. but does society (as a collective) not have rights? Does an individual not trade some of the individual rights to acquire some of the benefits of being in a society? Least of all a lifestyle on the social (never having worked a day in their lives).

We can agree to disagree - folk stealing to feed or eat, something has gone wrong with society, but looting\burning for kicks or for the latest phones\etc., shooting the little tw@ts would solve a lot of problems, immediately and future.

Dibs

 

[Jacob]

....
.....- but carefully targeted shooting, just the 1 or 2 would have a phenominal affect on the looters\arsonists........tw@ts would solve a lot of problems, immediately and future.

Dibs

Would provoke protest marches and riots everywhere, and quite right too.

Nobody sees to want to consider causes. Not easy, but they are there, and more complicated than a lust for blackberries.

Here's a good line I just spotted: Social security works both ways