Rejuvenating and reclaiming old floorboards

[kafkaian]

Okay, on the floor of my front bedroom I have some lovely original Victorian 7"-ish floorboards.

1) I don't want to hire out a floor sander to clean them up and remove old paint etc, I'd rather do things properly, pull them all up, de-nail, make good and put them through some sort of planer, before finishing them and screwing them back down. I would rather screw than nail as then I won't be shaking the original cornices and plaster rose of the lower floor ceiling. I don't have a standalone planer but might be willing to invest in something for the future

2) I'd also like to tongue and groove them somehow (currently plain boards) but obviously don't want to lose any width - although I have some spare to make up any ground caused by the gaps in the 150 years of shrinkage. I thought about grooving both sides and inserting a 5mm tongue, but am wondering if I can buy stock readily available to do this.

Any thoughts on equipment for (1) and ideas for (1) and (2) would be appreciated

All the best

Ian

 

[Walnut]

A suggestion for (1)

Your local, joinery company may have a large planer, where the long lengths of floor boards will go through in minutes with an even surface, ready for staining / polishing, due to the limited man power / time required I would assume this will be done for a very reasonable price. Especially when you think of the time / electricity / sanding paper you will use.

I appreciate there is northing like doing it yourself however

 

[kafkaian]

A suggestion for (1)

Your local, joinery company may have a large planer, where the long lengths of floor boards will go through in minutes with an even surface, ready for staining / polishing, due to the limited man power / time required I would assume this will be done for a very reasonable price. Especially when you think of the time / electricity / sanding paper you will use.

I appreciate there is northing like doing it yourself however

Thanks Walnut, but do you know what? Birmingham's supposed to be the country's second largest city and the chances of me finding such a company are minimal - unless others know of any. It's poor where we are. I used to know this reclamation yard that helped out with such like, but they soon went. Davies Timber, Wythall (South Brum) might be able to do it though if I ask them nicely!

 

[OLD]

To refinish boards a planer/thicknesser or a drum sander m/c will do it but one piece of steel and your in trouble .Ply comes in 4 & 6mm thick so you could have tongues cut and route grooves in the board edge. Any board cupping will give you problems and shims will be required to keep floor level with thinner boards

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

I think finding a workshop that has a planer thicknesser would be easy, I imagine that none would let you run your floor boards through it.
I'm not too sure exactly what the effects of planing off layers of paint will do to the working parts of the machine, but the blades will be blunt very quickly.
A large drum sander might be a different story however.
Where you want to screw the floor boards back down, is this to enable easy access underneath for future needs?
If this is the case then any tongue and groove or spline joint will be troublesome to remove.

 

[cumbrian]

I was faced with a similar problem, although the boards I wanted to clean up were probably worse as they were from our barn and were covered in many years' worth of unmentionables and lots of gritty dust.

I tried denailing these and then, as you suggest, putting them through a planer. The problems I had:

Any board that is slightly cupped will have a fair bit removed to get an even finish everywhere; this may not be an issue if the boards are thick enough to start with, and you can finish by putting them through a thicknesser to get them all to the same thickness. Because my boards were already t&g, ending up with boards that were all the same thickness AND had the t&g in the right place was a **&£%**.

The dirt left on the boards after a going over with a wirebrush was still enough to blunt the planer blades quickly, with the result that the finish wasn't very good. I don't have enough experience to comment as to whether old paint would cause similar problems? The dust that came off my boards in the planing process was unpleasant; old paint or varnish could be much worse - decent mask required!!

The one remaining hidden bit of nail in the board will be discovered by the planer blade and make it into an interesting moulding machine instead :evil:

So I would stick all the boards through the planer, with the above caveats, then put new blades in for thicknessing (assuming it's a combined machine.)

As I said, my boards were flooring from a dirty old barn; in the end I found it better to sand them, because of the nature of their original state - I used a Festool Rotex with suitable extractor, and it worked really well - and then finally plane/thickness the ones that were worth using for something special. The rest will go for rough cladding.

That was my recent experience, and quite a learning curve; hopefully someone with rather more experience might be able to give rather more useful advice.

 

[DomValente]

If you've got a van and fancy a drive to junction 5 I can accomodate you, grooves as well.

Dom

 

[ike]

Hello Ian,

(1) As said, I doubt any joinery shop would entertain planing secondhand timber for you - too risky. But maybe a halfway house would be to invest in a small thicknesser. A brushmotor portable jobby wouldn't break the bank. They have disposable blades in case you chuff on a nail and still useful for the next project?

(2) I wouldn't T and G cos as wot was already said about access. But you could close your gaps if you put noggins between the joists. Helluva lot of work though.

 

[Scrit]

Assuming that the boards aren't brittle with age and don't just crack when you start lifting them - the pitch pine floorboards in my 1888 house need replacing almost every time I lift one - I'd agree that almost no one in their right mind is going to let you thickness (the machine is a thicknesser and not a planer) recycled boards unless you indemnify them against damage, i.e. nicking, regrinding and wear and tear on their thicknesser blades caused by nails, screws, grit, etc. potentially embedded in the boards. So the most likely companies who might do the job are going to be firms selling recycled timber by machining down old mill beams, etc. Any quality joinery shop would probably not help you out as any damage to a primary machine such as a thicknesser will potentially cost them lots of money in lost production. The same goes for wide belt sanders. People with them generally don't like shoving mucky old boards through their kit as soot off the undersides of the boards can leave marks on the feed belt which are difficult to remove and will mark subsequent materials going through - and almost any house built prior to 1950 will have soot on the underside of floorboards, believe me. Any inclusions such as nails are also likely to damage or even tear the belt(s), which might be OK if you don't mind paying £30 to £50 for a replacement belt (plus the time to load it), but I for one would never have entertained this approach - and I have been asked in the past.

Even if you can get the stuff surfaced, as another poster points out, how are you going to get the tongues and grooves to match up? I'll bet you even money that your T & G is rough sawn on the underside and not planed. It was once common practice (at least until the inter-war years) to surface plane and edge tongue and groove band-resawn boards on a three-sided planer/moulder, often called a matcher-moulder and comprising a thicknessing head and two side moulding heads. These machines generally ran square cutter blocks allowing three sides of a skirting or floor board to be profiled/flat machined in one pass. What did it matter if the back/underside was rough? Nobody would see it once it was installed........

I think the best approach is hire the floor sander and use smaller scale sanders to do the detailed stuff, awkward bits, etc. If the boards are pitch pine the belts will clog with resin (another reason people don't like machining old pitch pine), so get some turps/turps substitute to wash-out the belts regularly. Do not leave the stuff to cool and harden to iron-like consistency overnight, but remove the worst with a screwdriver and spatula every time you take a break in proceedings.

Scrit

 

[DomValente]

I'd agree that almost no one in their right mind is going to let you thickness

So what are you saying Scrit

Dom

 

[Jake]

I don't understand why this is worth the effort anyway. Nothing wrong with sanding floorboards.

 

[kafkaian]

Many thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. Much and sincerely appreciated

 

[kafkaian]

Many thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. Much and sincerely appreciated. I've tried to answer everyone:

If you've got a van and fancy a drive to junction 5 I can accomodate you, grooves as well.

Don't have a van and wouldn't want to screw your equipment. However I would de-nail like mad and am finding your offer tempting and very generous. many thanks for the offer :lol:

To refinish boards a planer/thicknesser or a drum sander m/c will do it but one piece of steel and your in trouble .Ply comes in 4 & 6mm thick so you could have tongues cut and route grooves in the board edge. Any board cupping will give you problems and shims will be required to keep floor level with thinner boards

Thanks OLD. Never thought of the ply idea for the tongue

I think finding a workshop that has a planer thicknesser would be easy, I imagine that none would let you run your floor boards through it.

You could be right

A large drum sander might be a different story however.

It's going that way

Where you want to screw the floor boards back down, is this to enable easy access underneath for future needs?

No this is to stop hammer vibrations detrimentally affecting the Victorian ceiling and its original decoration underneath. And I don;t want to split potentially brittle wood. If I'm going to the trouble of pilot holes, I might as well screw in a uniform pattern

Any board that is slightly cupped will have a fair bit removed to get an even finish everywhere; this may not be an issue if the boards are thick enough to start with, .....

Yes this did cross my mind Cumbrian and why I'm thiking about sanding again. But not in situ

So I would stick all the boards through the planer, with the above caveats, then put new blades in for thicknessing (assuming it's a combined machine.)

Any machine recommendations? I know it's all about budget but let's say budget to intermediate level

That was my recent experience, and quite a learning curve; hopefully someone with rather more experience might be able to give rather more useful advice.

Thanks for being unselfish and imparting that info

(1) .... But maybe a halfway house would be to invest in a small thicknesser.

Any recommends?

(2) But you could close your gaps if you put noggins between the joists. Helluva lot of work though.

Agreed as I've done this with another room. Basically I want to reduce dust, draughts and gaps for loose pennies (showing off boards instead of carpeting). I would create access areas where am replacing crud boards.

Assuming that the boards aren't brittle with age ...

Mine aren't too bad thank goodness but take your point regarding third party help.

The same goes for wide belt sanders. People with them generally don't like shoving mucky old boards through their kit as soot off the undersides of the boards can leave marks on the feed belt which are difficult to remove and will mark subsequent materials going through - and almost any house built prior to 1950 will have soot on the underside of floorboards, believe me.

This suggests hiring a h/d belt sander for a day.

Even if you can get the stuff surfaced, as another poster points out, how are you going to get the tongues and grooves to match up?

I was just going to take the reference point from the smooth top.

I'll bet you even money that your T & G is rough sawn on the underside and not planed.

Affirmative

It was once common practice (at least until the inter-war years) to surface plane and edge tongue and groove band-resawn boards on a three-sided planer/moulder, often called a matcher-moulder and comprising a thicknessing head and two side moulding heads. These machines generally ran square cutter blocks allowing three sides of a skirting or floor board to be profiled/flat machined in one pass. What did it matter if the back/underside was rough? Nobody would see it once it was installed........

Interesting. Never knew that, thanks

I think the best approach is hire the floor sander and use smaller scale sanders to do the detailed stuff, awkward bits, etc.

I think I would go for a h/d hand held as I'd take the boards up and do them outside to save messing up the house

If the boards are pitch pine the belts will clog with resin (another reason people don't like machining old pitch pine), so get some turps/turps substitute to wash-out the belts regularly. Do not leave the stuff to cool and harden to iron-like consistency overnight, but remove the worst with a screwdriver and spatula every time you take a break in proceedings.

Thanks for this advice

I'd agree that almost no one in their right mind is going to let you thickness

So what are you saying Scrit

Don't worry Dom, I'd make sure you were indemnified okay

I don't understand why this is worth the effort anyway. Nothing wrong with sanding floorboards.

I like to do things in a certain way Jake. I want to inspect all the joists and treat/strengthen if necessary. I need to get them up anyway to clean out all the old rubbish and replace some of the dodgy bits. Also, I don't want to sand in situ as the wife has a massive dust allergy

End

 

[inventor]

I had this problem recently. I tried sanding the boards and found woodworm. The boards broke when I took them up. We looked at reclaimed timber, but couldn't find any of adequate quality. It had nails left in it. Eventually, we chose new "European redwood" (meaning pine) bought from Jewson. It worked very well in the end.

Instead of T&G, consider a soundproofing membrane. I used T60 membrane,http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/howtofloors.htm, and it really worked.

 

[kafkaian]

I had this problem recently. I tried sanding the boards and found woodworm. The boards broke when I took them up. We looked at reclaimed timber, but couldn't find any of adequate quality. It had nails left in it. Eventually, we chose new "European redwood" (meaning pine) bought from Jewson. It worked very well in the end.

Instead of T&G, consider a soundproofing membrane. I used T60 membrane,http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/articles/howtofloors.htm, and it really worked.

Thanks Inventor! I too thought about a membrane and will look at your solution. This is the one room I'd really like to preserve as the original in everything from floorboards to fireplaces to skirting etc. Over the months I have done exactly what you have done and replaced with new - apart from period fireplaces, cornices and plasterwork which are all intact.

 

[DomValente]

Ian despite what Scrit has said, (and it is all very true, believe me I looked for faults ) I am willing to chance it, you sound like the kind of person who cares that things are done right and with a good metal detector there shouldn't be a problem.

Dom

 

[Colin C]

Ian

If you have one of the stud finders that also does metal, you should be able to find all the nails

 

[Scrit]

Even if you can get the stuff surfaced, as another poster points out, how are you going to get the tongues and grooves to match up?

I was just going to take the reference point from the smooth top.

A minor techinixal point here, thicknessers reference from the bottom of the workpiece so to get your reference surface flat you'll need to plane then thickness unless you can guarantee that all your boards are flat, which I doubt they will be. In 100 years the boards will almost certainly have shrunk unevenly and probably cupped to boot (sorry, personal experience over several house bashings) - so you no longer have a reference surface to work from......... The other problem is that of worm attack. A percentage of your boards will inevitably have worm attack not greatly visible on the surface, but very visible a few millimetres below - the little sods like tunnelling just below the surface.

I think the best approach is hire the floor sander and use smaller scale sanders to do the detailed stuff, awkward bits, etc.

I think I would go for a h/d hand held as I'd take the boards up and do them outside to save messing up the house

Leave them in situ, seal the room, empty the room beneath and use a vacuum cleaner at all times attached to a floor sander - the dust issue is containable, but even a 4in sander like my Makita will take forever and cost a fortune in belts (been there, T-shirt acquired, etc.....).

I'd agree that almost no one in their right mind is going to let you thickness

So what are you saying Scrit

That your machine beds are likely to get scored by the process (inclusions) and that the pitch resin will need cleaning up regularly and promptly. The stuff (resin) gets everywhere, hardens like iron and is a b*gger to get off once it cools down - turns a good machine into a right royal mess unless you scrape the excess off promptly.

I want to inspect all the joists and treat/strengthen if necessary.

If the house is over 100 years old examine any flight holes for fresh frass (fine sawdust). If it's there then treatment will require specialist attention as you cannot do this yourself (the materials required are only available to licensed contractors), if it's not then the flight holes are old and they've already chewed whatever they were going to so there will be no more damage in the future. As to strengthening, do you mean sistering the joists? That's normally only becessary on much more modern houses because the floors are springy. Surely you don't have problems like that?

As to your missus being affected by dust, lifting the floors in an old house will disturb the dust in the voids, a lot of which will be extremely fine soot - a much nastier dust that any wood dust - so it might be better for your wife to move out to ma in law's for the week.......

If you have one of the stud finders that also does metal, you should be able to find all the nails

From the experience of thicknessing reclaimed pitch pine even industrial metal detectors won't find all the metals, especially non-ferous metals. Similarly they won't find pottery grit, glass grit and other non-metallic contaminants - all of which can and will nick blades. This is why pine recyclers always buy their own blade grinder - they need one.

Scrit

 

[kafkaian]

Ian despite what Scrit has said, (and it is all very true, believe me I looked for faults ) I am willing to chance it, you sound like the kind of person who cares that things are done right and with a good metal detector there shouldn't be a problem.

Dom, you're a gentleman.

A minor techinixal point here, thicknessers reference from the bottom of the workpiece so to get your reference surface flat you'll need to plane then thickness unless you can guarantee that all your boards are flat, which I doubt they will be.

Right gotcha!. Many thanks for that.

In 100 years the boards will almost certainly have shrunk unevenly and probably cupped to boot (sorry, personal experience over several house bashings)

Indeed there is a bit

The other problem is that of worm attack. A percentage of your boards will inevitably have worm attack not greatly visible on the surface, but very visible a few millimetres below - the little sods like tunnelling just below the surface.

I've noted two small areas thus far!!! Blighters

If the house is over 100 years old examine any flight holes for fresh frass (fine sawdust). If it's there then treatment will require specialist attention as you cannot do this yourself (the materials required are only available to licensed contractors), if it's not then the flight holes are old and they've already chewed whatever they were going to so there will be no more damage in the future.

This is very much why I want to get them all up. If the joists have any problems then, now is the time to get the "whitecoats" in

As to strengthening, do you mean sistering the joists? That's normally only becessary on much more modern houses because the floors are springy. Surely you don't have problems like that?

I've had to do it in two previous rooms because sparkies have completely butchered joists leaving one only with a couple of inches connected and another barely an inch. I want to make sure the same hasn't happened in which case I will put some plates in.

As to your missus being affected by dust, lifting the floors in an old house will disturb the dust in the voids, ....

Exactly and I want to get all the muck out and give the area coat of uPVA before putting down some insulation and checking the wiring.

If you have one of the stud finders that also does metal, you should be able to find all the nails

Good idea Colin, thanks for the warnings Scrit

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

After reading your post again, I wondered if it was an over hand planer, or thicknesser in mind?
most of the post seem to indicate use of a thicknesser, but in skilled hands an overhand planer will remove a consistent thickness along the length of a board.
As it is being screwed back down, it doesnt even need to be very straight.
If you go for the spline method, then that will cancel out any variation in thickness of the boards and keep the joints reasonably flush