Recording small vocal group on an ipad

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stewart

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Hi - any sound engineers here?
My wife has a small vocal group - about 5-10 singers - and wants to be able to record the group's performances on her ipad using GarageBand. Does anyone have any suggestions for what microphone would work well for this purpose? She has an irig device which will let her plug in a microphone with an xlr connection and it has phantom power of 48v as well. Any advice gratefully received! We've found the web rather too vast to help us narrow down the choice!
 
I'm not a sound engineer but I do record a number of productions/performances my Granddaughters take part in.
I use a Tamron DR40 sound recorder and then sync it to the video footage I've taken on my DSLR camera and iPhone. I also record the sound manually using a Rode Mic on the camera.
I can then balance out the sounds using my video editing software.
Rode make a iXY lightening microphone especially for the iPad and iPhone but check which versions it fits.

Rod
 
Give Eric the Viking a nudge. He is a sound engineer. A very good sound engineer. You will learn more than you could possibly imagine that you did not know.
You have been warned...
 
I use a large diaphragm condenser mic for two voices + 2 acoustic instruments. Think bluegrass band all standing round the one mic.

Budget option is the Beringer C1 at about £40, but a mic stand and shock mount plus cables will be another £25+.

Friends use Rode NT1 mics @ £155 each, very nice.

These will work well for performances too, though put the mic well behind the speakers and turn any monitors down or off.
 
I initially wrote a lot of guff about how to do what you ask, but I've deleted it. Honestly, she's wasting her money taking this any further with that add-on box for an iPad. It has several problems:

1. It's mono. This is not a bad thing as such but it changes the way I'd work, and mic choice is more awkward.
2. It's noisy - if the spec. is to be believed, really pretty noisy indeed (and if the manufacturer reads this - it's your fault for not publishing proper specs., etc. It's not hard, just embarrassing if your kit is actually rubbish).
3. It's inflexible (from a doing-it perspective), and too fragile (those mini-jack cables!).
4. You need some bass cut (say 12dB/octave roll-off from 70Hz), BEFORE the pre-amps. It doesn't have that, and you can't add it.

Get two things:

o A Zoom H4 or similar (H2 at a pinch).
o A decent K+M floorstand*, with a boom (and a sandbag for one of the legs). And an adaptor to mount the Zoom on it.

OK, that's several. But it's simple, and will serve you well with no cables, nor undue fuss. It'll eat batteries, but they all do that, Sir.

Then experiment. You need to set the recording levels so that fff doesn't overload it. If you change the distance from the choir, the balance will change, as will the necessary recording level. Do not use automatic recording - it's last resort only (always is). Put in a gentle bass roll-off (as above - pretty certain you can do this on a Zoom). Too high will castrate the basses, too low will make it sensitive to mechanical bumps etc. If in doubt leave it flat (no bass cut).

Assuming they're in a tight-ish horseshoe and the normal SATB line-up, you do NOT need the Zoom to be central to the group. I'd move it nearer Sops and Altos a bit - it usually helps, unless T&B are significantly weaker sections. Wherever you physically put it, point it towards the middle of the group. Ideally get it to eye-level, or higher especially if they're singing with sheet music (this is why you want a tall floorstand with boom arm - can always telescope them down, but not taller than they are!).

There's no trick - make some test recordings during rehearsals: alter one thing at a time, until you get a nice sound then go with that. Don't over-record (i.e. too loud). Modern digital recorders like Zooms are "quiet" meaning they don't hiss much. If you want to make a CD or MP3 of the recording, you can always boost the volume of too-quiet bits in the PC, but if it's too loud the actual recording will be distorted, and you cannot "fix that in post". Audience clapping will probably overload it, but that probably doesn't matter.

Distance from the group determines two things: clarity of diction (as recorded) and how much of the "room" you hear - the acoustic/reverb. For small choral groups in most circumstances, and with a single point recording system like the Zoom, I'd suggest six to ten feet from the singers should do it (if they're projecting for an audience. Go closer and you'll hear individuals, not the ensemble blend of voices. Six feet may be pushing it.

So you can't get 8' away on stage - consider putting Zoom and stand in the audience. A sandbag is a must, and ideally stripey hazard tape on the mic stand feet. If you warn the people sitting near, not to tap the stand with feet, they probably won't mind it being there. I usually go just to one side of any central aisle. Check with the venue that they don't mind, as some are sniffy about fire regs, even though most fire exit routes are to the back of most venues venues. If i the audience, you need more height - partly to get the recorder physically further from the audience, and partly to get closer to eye-level with the performers.

Summary: ditch the iPad idea, and get something like a Zoom and a decent stand (other similar kit is available). It won't be CD quality, but it will surprise you, in a good way, probably. Experiment to find the right level settings and positioning.

Hope that helps.

E.


*something like a 210 with a telescopic boom gives you a lot of flexibility on height. Tall ones can often work from the front rows of an audience, and the Zooms need no trip-hazard cables. All K+M stands are 3/8" Whitworth thread, as are the Zoom's mountings**, but with some Whit nuts+bolts and some hardwood, you can easily make up tidy swivels and adaptors.

**Some bits are 1/4" Whit (camera thread), which is a PITA, but you can overcome it, albeit with a bulky adaptor. Avoid this thread if you can as it only easily fits camera tripods. Also avoid the fat 5/8"27TPI thread of American mic. clips etc, as it's nasty! Cheap mic stands ONLY have this thread and they rattle. K+M - the simple life!
 
Wow, Eric - thanks for your answer - very full and detailed and helpful, and a generous amount of your time, too! You were right, Steve!

I'll get looking at prices.

Thanks for all the other suggestions as well - might not be able to stretch to the Pink Floyd console...
 
The Rode iXY mic produces stereo but I have to go with Eric about quality.
I bought the Tamron as it was £50 cheaper, less frills than the Zoom but little difference in sound quality.

Rod
 
Without contradicting the very helpful and learned responses so far I will just add a ten-penneth that's worth considering.

Just to add, I'm also a musician and vocalist of many years and for live work we've always used the classic Sure SM58 setup but that's inappropriate for this conversation. In the studio I use a Rhode NT2 which is your classic BBC ice cream style! On occasion I have access to a Neumann ribbon mic and they're rather nice!! BUT (and its a big BUT). I've also experimented with an ipad extensively for choral and small group recording and I have to say.......it's rubbish little condenser mic....just positioned in the right place.....does a totally undeservedly good job when you consider just how useless it is compared with all the kit being discussed above.

I've always been very pleasantly surprised at the quality of the output. Now it all depends on where this is destined and what the requirement for quality is of course but before you spend too much I would recommend just trying it native. Just a thought in pursuit of saving cash but not at the expense of too decent quality :)
 
Eric gives great advice I think. Having also been in bands almost all my life and recorded hundreds of hours of material both analogue (Revox / Nagra) and digital (Nagra Zoom and direct to Mac Pro etc via mixing desk, I come at this as a total amateur. iPad distorts VERY easily and you always get that "compressed" sound. It's fine for a quick take grab, but a Zoom is not that expensive and is a lot better if you just want a single mic set up.

Depending on the room it is worth playing around with mic placement including quite high up. 10 singers stars to get challenging with a single mic, especially if you want to differentiate the voices.

It also matters if you ever use a PA or not.
 
I'm also a sound engineer, I would personally use a mid/side recording technique, in this case, so you can seperate the dry signal from the reverb (room) sound, google mid/side recording techniques. There are a lot of different techniques you could use to capture the sound, Mid/Side being just one of them.
 
thetyreman":2usuqt3n said:
I'm also a sound engineer, I would personally use a mid/side recording technique, in this case, so you can seperate the dry signal from the reverb (room) sound, google mid/side recording techniques. There are a lot of different techniques you could use to capture the sound, Mid/Side being just one of them.

Several reasons for not (necessarily) using M+S:

1. You have to re-matrix what comes out back to A+B (i.e. left+right) stereo, in order to use it or listen to it.
2. You cannot eliminate the room acoustic that way or even come close to it. Properly done M+S allows you to control the width of the image (or, to be accurate, how it's spread across the sound stage), which is not the same thing at all.
3. The side-facing mic is usually (needs to be) a figure-of-8 polar pattern, which means it is extremely sensitive to rumble (like a ribbon, which is, by default, figure of eight). You have to EQ the channels separately. Fine for location TV work, etc. but less so if it's not the focus of your attention (and you don't have a decent mixer or anything to listen on).
4. As supplied, most of the "handheld" stereo recorders, like the Zooms, have a Blumlein crossed-cardioid pair built in, which is just fine for the purpose.

It's a curious coincidence that someone posted a pic of that old EMI console. Some desks of that vintage used M+S internally on mix buses (groups) and in stereo mic channels, because of the studded Painton faders:
6684003a5b4770a0953df4edc2a1234c.jpg

I used to use the slightly later, stereo version of this:
longden3.jpg

Which JL had thoughtfully arranged that way.

Not at all keen on the Germanium transistor amps though - fryin' tonight!

E.
 
Eric The Viking":3krksgas said:
Not at all keen on the Germanium transistor amps though - fryin' tonight!

E.


Mmmm germanium transistors, it tests as leaky so its good!

Pete
 
Random Orbital Bob":31o6q4r5 said:
I've also experimented with an ipad extensively for choral and small group recording and I have to say.......it's rubbish little condenser mic....just positioned in the right place.....does a totally undeservedly good job when you consider just how useless it is compared with all the kit being discussed above.
I've always been very pleasantly surprised at the quality of the output.

Sounds like good advice to me given the OP already has an iPad. After all, sound engineers probably hear all kinds of things normal people don't. :lol:
 
There is a lot of very good advice given here. In the end I suppose there has to be a balance between available budget, possible future need/use and the pleasure in getting new toys. Personally I'd go for the ETV solution given half a reasonable chance. I do have limited experience in recording, in concert venues, using crossed cardiod condensors with Revox HS77's/Dolby 'A' etc..
xy
 
Thanks for all the advice. Think I've understood it all! The zoom looks best for recording performances so we'll save up for that and a stand.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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