Record T5?
- Thread starter Chris152
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Thanks all. I think I'll try making a wooden/ hot dog handle like that for the plane and a shooting board for long grain. I'll keep working on free-hand jointing too, it clearly feels much more ergonomic than the shooting board, but my results are pretty variable! Just out of interest, are these any help?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-jointer-fence-100583
Bit like stabilisers on a bike til I can get going in a straight line?
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-jointer-fence-100583
Bit like stabilisers on a bike til I can get going in a straight line?
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
I would think of the veritas tool as one for planing very long boards.
It sounds to me like you are using a straight iron/have not experienced the camber before
Tom
It sounds to me like you are using a straight iron/have not experienced the camber before
Tom
Ok, thanks Tom.
The next thing I'm planning (a coffee table, my third 'thing') will need 1m long boards glued up. American white oak looks really nice and apparently it's good to work with - £90 planed and squared, £60 rough sawn incl wood for legs and apron. The T5/ shooting board question is about how I can 'efficiently' and effectively get and work rough sawn, but without buying more machinery. And it's not so much about the coffee table in particular as trying to establish a working method. At some point I'll probably crack and get a thicknesser/ planer or just buy the pre-machined wood!
The next thing I'm planning (a coffee table, my third 'thing') will need 1m long boards glued up. American white oak looks really nice and apparently it's good to work with - £90 planed and squared, £60 rough sawn incl wood for legs and apron. The T5/ shooting board question is about how I can 'efficiently' and effectively get and work rough sawn, but without buying more machinery. And it's not so much about the coffee table in particular as trying to establish a working method. At some point I'll probably crack and get a thicknesser/ planer or just buy the pre-machined wood!
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Its no guarantee that pre machined timber will still be true..for many reasons
when it was machined, how it was stored, the difference in acclimating to your workshop, etc
You have a 51/2 that's really capable/preferable of quickly doing the job.
I suggest a reference surface will be a big boon if you don't have one allready.
Have you used a plane with a camber yet?
You could use that 20 quid to buy a plane or just a double iron and try it out.
I would lean towards another plane as it could be got for the same price, but it would take a bit more
waiting.
I do all my work with the 5 1/2 though ...I use a 4 for rough stuff stripping paint and such.
A long grain shooting board would not be suitable for thick stock like your table.
Do you plan on making more stuff like boxes with thin stock soon?
Might be another excuse to go on the bay for either a 5 or an iron ?
Tom
when it was machined, how it was stored, the difference in acclimating to your workshop, etc
You have a 51/2 that's really capable/preferable of quickly doing the job.
I suggest a reference surface will be a big boon if you don't have one allready.
Have you used a plane with a camber yet?
You could use that 20 quid to buy a plane or just a double iron and try it out.
I would lean towards another plane as it could be got for the same price, but it would take a bit more
waiting.
I do all my work with the 5 1/2 though ...I use a 4 for rough stuff stripping paint and such.
A long grain shooting board would not be suitable for thick stock like your table.
Do you plan on making more stuff like boxes with thin stock soon?
Might be another excuse to go on the bay for either a 5 or an iron ?
Tom
I've not used a plane with a camber - and I'm not sure how I'd use it. I'll look into it today - I have an old No 4 with a spare blade which I could work on.
I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...
I'd read/ seen the need to plane wood that's machined, but reckon a really fine cut with the plane on wood that's nearly there is more manageable than sawn wood. If only because I'll be less exhausted and more able to focus...
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
You will not go back
Incidentally, try edge planing that thin stock too, as you will find it easier ill bet,
You won't see a reflected cambered image on the wood surface which you imagine you will.
You might see an inkling on a wide surface, but not on thin stuff.
You can camber it more if you like later to surface that rough stuff, but you might just decide to
put a small camber the 5 1/2 for the job after trying. (assumption)
Have fun !
Incidentally, try edge planing that thin stock too, as you will find it easier ill bet,
You won't see a reflected cambered image on the wood surface which you imagine you will.
You might see an inkling on a wide surface, but not on thin stuff.
You can camber it more if you like later to surface that rough stuff, but you might just decide to
put a small camber the 5 1/2 for the job after trying. (assumption)
Have fun !
Eric The Viking
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Chris152":3bjt8871 said:
I hate using my shooting board, but then it's probably not very well made (ought to have another go at it really). But one thing that makes a huge difference is the sharpness of the plane iron.
I only mention this because I struggled for many years (literally) untaught in the need for and ways of getting truly sharp edge tools. I'm still not brilliant at it, but a heck of a lot better since I happened on this forum!
I am NOT going to start another sharpening thread as such, but ask a rhetorical question: can you (ridiculously easily) dry-shave your forearm with the plane iron you're using? If not, it's unlikely to sharp enough for the task, and the result will be tiredness, grumpiness, and stuff that's not square, either. It's pretty demoralizing, and I can read that between the lines, I think.
As I said, no answer required, but if the suspected answer is the one that springs to mind, consider experimenting with Scary Sharp to get going, with a view to picking a favourite method ASAP (once you've been staggered by just how sharp you can actually get things).
I mention SS, because after a lot of failed attempts to get a good result with Norton stones, etc, it worked brilliantly for me first go. I suspect that one of the reasons it worked so well for me was that it let me 'go down the grits' in a very controlled way, thus guaranteeing I did it properly. FWIW Axminster have good quality wet+dry paper (Hermes), and that's advisable. I bought some cheap stuff from Toolstation at one point - big mistake and wasted money.
Yes my technique was rubbish, but I've got a Tormekalike wet grinder, Norton and old, excellent stones I've inherited, and umpteen jigs. Really, nothing actually worked consistently, and the consistency thing is important. SS made a lot of that irrelevant, and really, really encouraged me (sharpness = easier and more enjoyable woodworking). And although it probably has a high ongoing cost, it was relatively cheap to get going.
For goodness's sake, please don't turn this into a flame war! I'm just trying to help, because it worked for me when other approaches didn't. If I'd been taught properly, etc., etc., is all true, but hey.
E.
That could be part of the issue, Eric. I read a lot online and went for wet and dry papers from Axminster on a veritas glass lapping plate - I have 800, 1200 and 24000 and polish with a strop I made, which seems to work fine. BUT - last time I was sharpening I noticed the dark trace left by the steel was uneven, which on reflection was caused by residues of sticky-back glue from the previous sheets on the plate. This would have meant it wasn't sharpening properly across the blade and I shouldn't have been so lazy. I guess in future some white spirit to clean the plate before applying the next sheet? But I do reckon I have a workable handle on sharpening now, in that the first couple of times I used the paper I could indeed shave my arm with the blade. I decided to stop checking on every sharpening in case I ran out of body hair.
So, yes, more attention to sharpening, but I still think I want to have a go at a long-grain shooting board, too. They cost so little and the end grain one only took 10 minutes to make, and is accurate - unlike my freehand edge planing much of the time.
Also, I recently asked for advice on cutting the wavy edge off a bit of oak worktop and considered a circular saw for the job - I wonder if one could be used for squaring the ends of board along the lines Custard suggested with a mitre saw, above? Maybe followed by very light sanding? A circular saw would have the advantage of not taking bench space except in use, and maybe could help with more jobs than a mitre saw.
edit - 2400!
So, yes, more attention to sharpening, but I still think I want to have a go at a long-grain shooting board, too. They cost so little and the end grain one only took 10 minutes to make, and is accurate - unlike my freehand edge planing much of the time.
Also, I recently asked for advice on cutting the wavy edge off a bit of oak worktop and considered a circular saw for the job - I wonder if one could be used for squaring the ends of board along the lines Custard suggested with a mitre saw, above? Maybe followed by very light sanding? A circular saw would have the advantage of not taking bench space except in use, and maybe could help with more jobs than a mitre saw.
edit - 2400!
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I used to be able to cut a strip of hair from my shoulder to my wrist ... with an Estwing axe. 
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
7 1/4" circular saws are horrible things fit only for a building site. Most have rip blades or poor general purpose ones so would need a replacement to obtain a cut anything like clean or accurate.
knockknock
Established Member
Something to consider is, free hand edge planning to get the edge close, then shooting for final perfection. This would lessen the amount of shooting work. Eventually you would develop your edge planning skills, to where you would only be shooting when needed.
I think that sounds like a good plan - I get to improve and can still be confident that the end result will work.knockknock":3rc69fwl said:
phil.p, I'd thought maybe to get one of these
http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-hk55 ... l-ax959911
with a finer blade, if I can stretch the budget. Or the ts55 if I win the lottery. They look accurate and would need just light finishing? It's a lot of money tho and I keep feeling I should use a hand or bandsaw and some planing...
Really helpful advice all - I think I just need to make a decision! :?
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
How much space you got ?
You could get a nice tablesaw for that money (hammer)
You would still need to prepare one face and edge though.
You could bandsaw either with a decent one.
Cleaning it up would be no bother as your gonna be planing it regardless.
I have another jig like a birds mouth for larger stuff like that.
It' was 2/3rd's of the middle of a door, cut where the letterbox is hole is, an open C shape
I clamp it down, and slide stock in from the open letterbox end and wedge it
Solid as
Tom
You could get a nice tablesaw for that money (hammer)
You would still need to prepare one face and edge though.
You could bandsaw either with a decent one.
Cleaning it up would be no bother as your gonna be planing it regardless.
I have another jig like a birds mouth for larger stuff like that.
It' was 2/3rd's of the middle of a door, cut where the letterbox is hole is, an open C shape
I clamp it down, and slide stock in from the open letterbox end and wedge it
Solid as
Tom
Space and noise are the issues Tom - I'm working in a single garage that also has a freezer in it. Tried to figure where I could shift the freezer to but no joy. And table saws make too much noise for me - the nice people in Cardiff Axminster ran a couple a while back, one brush and one induction motor, and they were both pretty loud without even cutting. So the noise would go through the house - whereas I can easily build a basic bench in the garden for a track saw, and the sound will dissipate easier I think. Not that I plan to cut much - just occasional use, but it'd still be an issue.
I like the sound of longer stock coming through the letter box. Do you have a pic of that?
I like the sound of longer stock coming through the letter box. Do you have a pic of that?
Eric The Viking
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I have to start work really... but some quick things that have helped me:
Tip #1: On any edge tool, that cuts like a chisel or a plane, you're aiming for a very smooth edge (lengthwise along it) where two cleanly defined smooth surfaces intersect, giving a sharp angle. There's no magic to this: if there are any scratch marks from sharpening, these make serrations, which greatly reduce the "sharpness" of the tool and contribute to tearout. They act like microscopic bulldozers, rather than cutting. So with SS, the idea is that each finer grit removes the marks left by the one before.
Tip #2: Sharpen with a strong desk lamp either on the bench or nearby. Find an old, manky SLR camera lens, either 50mm or anything shorter down to about 28mm (where it becomes too awkward usually). Keep the back lens cap handy and fit a cheap filter on the front to protect the optics (It'll be in a workshop!). Using the lens back to front works excellently as a powerful, very high quality, magnifying glass. The wider the lens (shorter focal length) the more it magnifies, but the area you can focus on gets smaller. I find 50mm or thereabouts is the best compromise, and since that used to be the standard for cheap SLRs they're cheap as chips in junk shops, etc.
For each grit, look at the edge you're sharpening or flattening frequently with the lens, to see if you've made an even row of scratches along it. When you have, and you have obliterated the scratches from the previous grit, stop, as that's as good as it gets with that grade of grit.
Tip #3: To get that perfect intersection of two planes at the sharp edge, you can't have the back of the iron with grinding or honing marks in it, either: it needs to be smooth like the bevel. Only the bit right next to the edge needs to be like that, but since it needs to be flat, most people flatten a decent distance back from the edge, so it's a done-once, done-forever operation. You don't have to - going as far back as the cap iron is probably quite enough. Any rust pitting really has to go - you'll see why when you magnify the edge! Search on microbevels for more discussion on this, but basically smooth and dead flat are the key things, not shininess as such. I find if I try to use a powered polishing mop as a shortcut (or the "honing wheel" on my Tormek-style system), it dubs over (blunts) the edge. Do this bit first, carefully, so you only need to do it once.
Tip #4: I use a large lump of glass (about 18" x 12"), and fix down strips with the grit written on one corner of each strip in permanent felt tip. I fix down as many as I can get on at once, so do all the coarse grinds together, then a finer set. Grindings from one grit will spoil the effect of the finer ones, so they go in order with a bit of a gap, and I sometimes hose the glass plate down between times, outside, with the finer grit uppermost (wherever you do this it will result in a rust stain on the ground!). When I have to replace the strips, I clean the plate thoroughly with meths and get it dry, and spray glue on the backs of the strips rather than onto the plate directly.
Tip #5: Unless you actually damage an edge in use, once you've first got it sharp, you only need the finer grits really. Expect to hone (do the last ones) frequently, depending on use. So keep the sharpening set-up handy, so you use it, rather than be tempted into pushing just that bit further to get something finished.
I haven't mentioned sharpening angles - others on here can recommend what's best for a shooting plane, and it will vary a bit with the wood you're working. Hope that helps a bit.
E.
Always put the lens caps back on immediately after use: you'll hate it if a piece of crud spoils the view!
Tip #1: On any edge tool, that cuts like a chisel or a plane, you're aiming for a very smooth edge (lengthwise along it) where two cleanly defined smooth surfaces intersect, giving a sharp angle. There's no magic to this: if there are any scratch marks from sharpening, these make serrations, which greatly reduce the "sharpness" of the tool and contribute to tearout. They act like microscopic bulldozers, rather than cutting. So with SS, the idea is that each finer grit removes the marks left by the one before.
Tip #2: Sharpen with a strong desk lamp either on the bench or nearby. Find an old, manky SLR camera lens, either 50mm or anything shorter down to about 28mm (where it becomes too awkward usually). Keep the back lens cap handy and fit a cheap filter on the front to protect the optics (It'll be in a workshop!). Using the lens back to front works excellently as a powerful, very high quality, magnifying glass. The wider the lens (shorter focal length) the more it magnifies, but the area you can focus on gets smaller. I find 50mm or thereabouts is the best compromise, and since that used to be the standard for cheap SLRs they're cheap as chips in junk shops, etc.
For each grit, look at the edge you're sharpening or flattening frequently with the lens, to see if you've made an even row of scratches along it. When you have, and you have obliterated the scratches from the previous grit, stop, as that's as good as it gets with that grade of grit.
Tip #3: To get that perfect intersection of two planes at the sharp edge, you can't have the back of the iron with grinding or honing marks in it, either: it needs to be smooth like the bevel. Only the bit right next to the edge needs to be like that, but since it needs to be flat, most people flatten a decent distance back from the edge, so it's a done-once, done-forever operation. You don't have to - going as far back as the cap iron is probably quite enough. Any rust pitting really has to go - you'll see why when you magnify the edge! Search on microbevels for more discussion on this, but basically smooth and dead flat are the key things, not shininess as such. I find if I try to use a powered polishing mop as a shortcut (or the "honing wheel" on my Tormek-style system), it dubs over (blunts) the edge. Do this bit first, carefully, so you only need to do it once.
Tip #4: I use a large lump of glass (about 18" x 12"), and fix down strips with the grit written on one corner of each strip in permanent felt tip. I fix down as many as I can get on at once, so do all the coarse grinds together, then a finer set. Grindings from one grit will spoil the effect of the finer ones, so they go in order with a bit of a gap, and I sometimes hose the glass plate down between times, outside, with the finer grit uppermost (wherever you do this it will result in a rust stain on the ground!). When I have to replace the strips, I clean the plate thoroughly with meths and get it dry, and spray glue on the backs of the strips rather than onto the plate directly.
Tip #5: Unless you actually damage an edge in use, once you've first got it sharp, you only need the finer grits really. Expect to hone (do the last ones) frequently, depending on use. So keep the sharpening set-up handy, so you use it, rather than be tempted into pushing just that bit further to get something finished.
I haven't mentioned sharpening angles - others on here can recommend what's best for a shooting plane, and it will vary a bit with the wood you're working. Hope that helps a bit.
E.
Always put the lens caps back on immediately after use: you'll hate it if a piece of crud spoils the view!
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
A £2 jeweller's loup will do.
Eric The Viking
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phil.p":3iw2tq7a said:
You're dead right Phil, as usual, and I used to carry one round at work.
But when I found I needed to stack two to get any value I realised I needed glasses! The advantage of a camera lens (or anything like that) is that you don't have to get close to the lens, so it's fine if you wear glasses. I've got a magnifying headband that's excellent for many jobs, and I can wear specs underneath it, but even with a little add-on lend, it's still not powerful enough for sharpening tasks.
