Record StaySet - opinions

[worker]

Hi

Does anyone use Record StaySet planes/irons? What are your thoughts on them?

Basically wondering whether it's worth buying a StaySet plane for the sake of not having to dismantle the iron and chipbreaker each time for sharpening (which I find myself having to do quite often for oak).

 

[Dave65]

I have a couple of stay set planes, bought for the plane rather than it being stay set. Can’t really see the benefit, doesn’t take much effort to remove the cap iron to sharpen then re assemble. I’ve just upgraded my 5 1/2 to a hock cap iron and Ray Iles blade, it’s made a big difference.

 

[Amplidyne]

Not bothered personally. Use two or three irons and cap irons already set up. just change them, and then have a session sharpening. Personally I always keep the sharpening angle short, grinding it back fairly regularly, so they don't take much to sharpen and hone.

 

[1275gt]

I use a stay set plane as one of my daily users. For me it's not a deal-breaker in regards to sharpening and the lever cap needs to be stiff to ensure the removable part seats on the iron efficiently. However the thicker cap iron does feel nicer in use imo.

 

[Jacob]

I've got a couple with Clifton stay-set cap irons. Does slightly speed things up if you do trad sharpening "a little and often" and they do fit well by being pivoted and not sprung. Trad sharpening removes least metal so they do actually stay set for some time.
It's not that obvious but they also seem to be pivoted side to side in the slot with the pin, so even if the blade is twisted or otherwise out of order, the cap iron will still sit tight at the sharp end.
They are not essential but if you have one it's worth hanging on to.

 

[mark w]

I've got a couple with Clifton stay-set cap irons. Does slightly speed things up if you do trad sharening "a little and often" and they do fit well by being pivoted and not sprung. Trad sharpening removes least metal so they do actually stay set for some time.
It's not that obvious but they also seem to be pivoted side to side in the slot with the pin, so even if the blade is twisted or otherwise out of order, the cap iron will still sit tight at the sharp end.
They are not essential but if you have one it's worth hanging on to.

Trad sharpening removes less metal???
That's not true is it Jacob.
Yes I've poked the bear

 

[Jacob]

Trad sharpening removes less metal???
That's not true is it Jacob.
Yes I've poked the bear

Absolutely is true. Main thing is to keep things away from powered grinders - they are the blade destroyers.
Not quite the same but it's a bit like sharpening a knife with a steel - just a light touch almost every time you pick it up. They last for life and need no great grinding and fettling.
On crazy sharpening - one thread which stood out for me was about sharpening a serrated bread knife. They went into minute detail about radii of serrations, different files, difficulties etc etc, completely ignoring that the whole point of the serrated knife is that it is really easy to sharpen with just a few passes with a steel. All it would need for life, which may even last several generations.
Stanley/Bailey design is all about sharpening more than anything else; thin blade needing no power grinding, quick and easy to remove and reset, easy to do just a light touch, a little and often..etc.
Hope that helps!

 

[mark w]

Absolutely is true. Main thing is to keep things away from powered grinders - they are the blade destroyers.
Not quite the same but it's a bit like sharpening a knife with a steel - just a light touch almost every time you pick it up. They last for life and need no great grinding and fettling.
On crazy sharpening - one thread which stood out for me was about sharpening a serrated bread knife. They went into minute detail about radii of serrations, different files, difficulties etc etc, completely ignoring that the whole point of the serrated knife is that it is really easy to sharpen with just a few passes with a steel. All it would need for life, which may even last several generations.
Stanley/Bailey design is all about sharpening more than anything else; thin blade needing no power grinding, quick and easy to remove and reset, easy to do just a light touch, a little and often..etc.
Hope that helps!

You've deviated into grinding, I replied to your comment about sharpening.

 

[Jacob]

You've deviated into grinding, I replied to your comment about sharpening.

Modern sharpeners grind "primary bevels" relentlessly. I don't. You don't need to if you take control of the process.

 

[mark w]

Modern sharpeners grind "primary bevels" relentlessly. I don't. You don't need to if you take control of the process.

Still deviating.

 

[Jacob]

Still deviating.

Don't worry about it - I only do it in the privacy of my own workshop! Well since I'm retired that is.
PS come to think - I used to do it out on the job too. I didn't turn up with sheets of granite, plate glass, reams of wet n dry, several stones, a collection of sharpening jigs, a Sorby pro edge, but still managed to keep tools sharp, with one oil stone and very little effort! How could this be?

 

[mark w]

Don't worry about it - I only do it in the privacy of my own workshop! Well since I'm retired that is.
PS come to think - I used to do it out on the job too. I didn't turn up with sheets of granite, plate glass, reams of wet n dry, several stones, a collection of sharpening jigs, a Sorby pro edge, but still managed to keep tools sharp, with one oil stone and very little effort! How could this be?

A couple of stones, a honing guide, that's all until the blade needs grinding, always a hollow ground blade.

 

[Jacob]

A couple of stones, a honing guide, that's all until the blade needs grinding, always a hollow ground blade.

I never need to grind, unless it's damaged etc, and never have a hollow bevel. Quite the opposite - it tends to end up slightly rounded under, from the edge at the chosen angle (usually about the universal 30º).

 

[Amplidyne]

Well I've always ground the blades back on the "grinding angle" using a high speed bench grinder, with a medium wheel that I kept dressed and open faced. I clamp a guide across the blade, literally two pieces of 30mm X 6mm drilled and tapped to make a clamp, and with a very light touch, and cooling after every pass, grind the bevel back until I'm left with a minimum "sharpening bevel". Fine India stone, and strop for that. You need a very light touch, if you change the colour of the blade by going too near to the edge, you've done for it. If anyone is going to try this, I recommend trying it on something that doesn't matter first. Keep on cooling it!

As you are only actually taking material from the length on the very edge when actually sharpening, I don't see that grinding does shorten the life of blades. You have to sharpen literally every few minutes on oak, and you need to make that as fast as possible.
As my blades were sharp enough to shave with, I can't have been doing anything much wrong.

Can't be fiddling with powered low speed grinders. I've got a Tormek. It's on a shelf.

 

[worker]

I know Clifton had it and then got rid of it so there must have been a good reason why they did.

Agree it's not essential but it's tickled my curiosity so I'll probably grab one if I can get it for cheap.

 

[Fitzroy]

I know Clifton had it and then got rid of it so there must have been a good reason why they did.

Agree it's not essential but it's tickled my curiosity so I'll probably grab one if I can get it for cheap.

I find it's the only way to work out if something is for me, use it day to day for a while.

 

[mudman]

A couple of stones, a honing guide, that's all until the blade needs grinding, always a hollow ground blade.

I agree, I think that was the traditional way to do things, at least in the books I have read. The edge would be re-established when necessary, that is when it has been snicked, the secondary has become 'thick' due to frequent whetting or rounded.

Also, I seem to recall that in addition to simplifying honing, the Stay Set cap iron would eliminate chatter as well. I have a #4 that belonged to my father in law that has a Stay Set iron, I should get it up and running again and see for myself.

 

[Corset]

quite like a stay set and the clifton equivalent. Its easy to quickly touch up a blade and put it back. My main issue is i am clumsy and drop the loose plate on the floor and then spend 2 minutes on my hands and knees finding it in the shavings. I am not sure we need to descend in a sharpening debate here when this is not the question. I tend to use oil stones and the stayset works nicely to allow regular sharpening. Do i prefer it to a normal cap iron, i think i am going to say yes.... Is it probably more complex to make i think yes hence the scarcity of them in modern planes

 

[Jacob]

I agree, I think that was the traditional way to do things, at least in the books I have read.

Well yes, almost universal advice is grind at 25º hone at 30º. Perfectly good advice for a beginner who looks for simple advice such as you would find in a book.
But having got a technique sorted out, people go their own way.
The idea of making use of a hollow grind is one such, but ignores that grinding in the past would be on a flat stone, hence the double sided oil stone.
Not sure why there is such a deep semi-mystical commitment to the rituals of modern sharpening, to the extent that it is seen as controversial to look at alternatives, verging on blasphemy!
They miss a lot.

 

[worker]

quite like a stay set and the clifton equivalent. Its easy to quickly touch up a blade and put it back. My main issue is i am clumsy and drop the loose plate on the floor and then spend 2 minutes on my hands and knees finding it in the shavings. I am not sure we need to descend in a sharpening debate here when this is not the question. I tend to use oil stones and the stayset works nicely to allow regular sharpening. Do i prefer it to a normal cap iron, i think i am going to say yes.... Is it probably more complex to make i think yes hence the scarcity of them in modern planes

That's welcome feedback and what you've described is my objective as well - quick touch up and back to work