Record & Stanley, Laminated Plane Irons
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bugbear
Established Member
Did you follow custards grinding tip? On a single bevel, fully polished iron, the line is undectable.JohnPW":3pzfyszw said:
BugBear
custard
Established Member
bugbear":31ni6lji said:
I think the key thing is that the entire bevel is in one plane, if there's a combination of a ground angle and a honed angle it becomes tricky to pick out the lamination line. I chose grinding because that's much easier than honing!
You guys have gun blue over there, or some kind of weak etch? Gun blue finds a lamination pretty quickly.
But the natural abrasive is the way to go, if you have some fine sand, etc - all of those things around the hardness of hardened steel will cut the steel slowly and the backing metal quickly, leaving a different look right away.
But the natural abrasive is the way to go, if you have some fine sand, etc - all of those things around the hardness of hardened steel will cut the steel slowly and the backing metal quickly, leaving a different look right away.
custard
Established Member
Here's one of the downsides of laminated irons.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanl ... SwRH9ZcG4H
I'd bet a pound to a penny that the iron in this Ebay listing is laminated. If you go to the very last photo and zoom in you can see the surface is cracked or crazed. I've seen that a few times, it's something to beware of.
Another problem can be that they're tricky to flatten off, not impossible, just more work than later irons. I've got a couple where the cap iron doesn't seat as well as I'd like, so at some settings you can get shavings wedging between the iron and cap iron. With a bit more effort I could probably get them fixed, but I'm not short of irons and life's brief enough without that on the to do list!
A final issue is that laminated irons are pretty old, so finding examples with more than an inch of useful life left isn't all that easy.
With laminated irons it seems to be a case of when they're good they're very good; but when they're bad they're awful!
I had a look today at a pair of Bailey planes that I like and use regularly, a 4 1/2 Record and an 06 Sorby. Interestingly they both had laminated irons, I'd not realised it before but maybe I am favouring these irons.
I don't know how old this iron is, but it still looks like it's fresh from the wrapper. And as a practical, user, smoothing plane I'm not sure what else anyone could possibly want?
The I Sorby 06 is interesting, the iron is stamped I Sorby and it has the sharp angular top that's the chief characteristic of all the laminated irons I've seen,
I guess the iron is original to the plane, there's no doubt it's laminated, but as working planes I'm not grinding off the camber on these. There's a bit more surface corrosion, but judging by the amount of iron that's left it wasn't used all that much (or maybe the original owner swapped irons around?). I don't know if this plane was manufactured by Sorby or if it's a badged Record? Furthermore, I don't know if these irons were even made by the plane manufacturer, or were subbed out to a third party?
As with the Record, the results are pretty much everything you could want from a tool. Maybe a Lie Nielsen with an A2 iron would hold up better on highly abrasive timbers, I don't know because I've never tried them out side by side, but for most users that's a non issue as who works Teak and Rosewood these days? In any temperate zone hardwood it delivers exactly the shaving I'm looking for, and I'm not conscious of having to hone it any more (or less) frequently than a modern LN or Veritas iron.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Stanl ... SwRH9ZcG4H
I'd bet a pound to a penny that the iron in this Ebay listing is laminated. If you go to the very last photo and zoom in you can see the surface is cracked or crazed. I've seen that a few times, it's something to beware of.
Another problem can be that they're tricky to flatten off, not impossible, just more work than later irons. I've got a couple where the cap iron doesn't seat as well as I'd like, so at some settings you can get shavings wedging between the iron and cap iron. With a bit more effort I could probably get them fixed, but I'm not short of irons and life's brief enough without that on the to do list!
A final issue is that laminated irons are pretty old, so finding examples with more than an inch of useful life left isn't all that easy.
With laminated irons it seems to be a case of when they're good they're very good; but when they're bad they're awful!
I had a look today at a pair of Bailey planes that I like and use regularly, a 4 1/2 Record and an 06 Sorby. Interestingly they both had laminated irons, I'd not realised it before but maybe I am favouring these irons.
I don't know how old this iron is, but it still looks like it's fresh from the wrapper. And as a practical, user, smoothing plane I'm not sure what else anyone could possibly want?
The I Sorby 06 is interesting, the iron is stamped I Sorby and it has the sharp angular top that's the chief characteristic of all the laminated irons I've seen,
I guess the iron is original to the plane, there's no doubt it's laminated, but as working planes I'm not grinding off the camber on these. There's a bit more surface corrosion, but judging by the amount of iron that's left it wasn't used all that much (or maybe the original owner swapped irons around?). I don't know if this plane was manufactured by Sorby or if it's a badged Record? Furthermore, I don't know if these irons were even made by the plane manufacturer, or were subbed out to a third party?
As with the Record, the results are pretty much everything you could want from a tool. Maybe a Lie Nielsen with an A2 iron would hold up better on highly abrasive timbers, I don't know because I've never tried them out side by side, but for most users that's a non issue as who works Teak and Rosewood these days? In any temperate zone hardwood it delivers exactly the shaving I'm looking for, and I'm not conscious of having to hone it any more (or less) frequently than a modern LN or Veritas iron.
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custard":2etzx7bc said:
to the extent that a LN iron would keep you from learning to use the cap iron to take a bigger bite without tearout, it would be a detriment. For a while, I had no LN planes. With the recent splurge, I do have a bronze #4 (I just wanted to see if I could make a plane, as an amateur) that could match it in use.
Going to softer irons taught me more about doing work faster than anything. they'll never win a contest where you tie a plane behind a car and drag it for the fastest and longest continuous 1 thousandth thick shaving, but they work awfully well for everything, including teaching you to have your surface near perfection before you take your final thin smoothing strokes.
I think the sorby planes are knockouts, but I've only got one, and I had to pay semi-dearly to get it (about 200 pounds for a #7). It's a pearl. And as nutty as I am about flattening things, it met any current manufacturer's flatness spec as it arrived without any sole treatment or evident of it in the past. Not saying they're all like that, but it provided some relief after spending the big bucks that nobody over here would probably ever give me back if I decided to sell it.
(I've been working rosewood blanks lately, and they have not been a problem with stock irons - or one I made out of O1 that is comparable to a prewar stanley laminated iron in hardness)
custard
Established Member
Here's a photo that shows the cracking or crazing on a laminated Record Iron,
Here's another Record iron, it has the sharply angled top design and the "crucible steel" message that I associate with laminated irons. It's definitely laminated, you can see the lamination line in the ground edge. What's surprising is that it carries the War Office logo and what looks like the date 1951 (although I guess this could also be a serial number of some sort?). I thought lamination was all done by 1939, maybe this was old stock that was stamped at a later date? Or maybe the War Office specced laminated irons? All guess work though, I don't really know.
Here's another Record iron, it has the sharply angled top design and the "crucible steel" message that I associate with laminated irons. It's definitely laminated, you can see the lamination line in the ground edge. What's surprising is that it carries the War Office logo and what looks like the date 1951 (although I guess this could also be a serial number of some sort?). I thought lamination was all done by 1939, maybe this was old stock that was stamped at a later date? Or maybe the War Office specced laminated irons? All guess work though, I don't really know.
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I would guess it is a date - I have a startett rule that was also marked with a broad arrow and a year (1971) and I know it is the year because it came with a receipt from 1971! I wonder if it was a MOD requirement to have the date stamped?
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
hmm that is a good point - I just assumed the mark on mine was put on by the manufacturer, but my only reason for thinking this is it is very neat and aligned exactly (as is the stamp on your BIL's plane, mind you) - not exactly proof now I think of it!
custard
Established Member
I followed up on the previous suggestion of taking a laminated Bailey style iron to a single bevel rather than the grinding/honing double bevel that I normally use.
Working this way laminated Bailey irons deliver a noticeable time saving in sharpening compared to later non-laminated Bailey irons, it takes the same time and the same number of strokes to bring an entire laminated single bevel to a polish as it does to polish a sliver of the edge with a double bevel regime. It's like the backing steel just isn't there.
If I only used laminated Bailey irons I'd probably go this route, however I use lots of different irons and I prefer a consistent approach as I generally gang sharpen half a dozen plane irons at the same time, plus there's a linisher permanently set to 25 degrees just two paces from my bench so in my circumstances it's no hardship to keep grinding down the bevel to within one mill of the edge. However, if I was a site craftsman working with just an oil stone I think I'd have noticed the additional sharpening burden that came when laminated Bailey irons switched to non-laminated. I'm surprised that wasn't noted somewhere in the historical record?
Incidentally, this is the single polished bevel of a Record laminated iron,
The lamination line is no longer visible (I sharpen on diamond stones and finish on the pink and yellow "scary sharp" papers, I forget what grit they are). If I was to grind this edge the lamination line would magically re-appear. I've no idea why that is the case.
Working this way laminated Bailey irons deliver a noticeable time saving in sharpening compared to later non-laminated Bailey irons, it takes the same time and the same number of strokes to bring an entire laminated single bevel to a polish as it does to polish a sliver of the edge with a double bevel regime. It's like the backing steel just isn't there.
If I only used laminated Bailey irons I'd probably go this route, however I use lots of different irons and I prefer a consistent approach as I generally gang sharpen half a dozen plane irons at the same time, plus there's a linisher permanently set to 25 degrees just two paces from my bench so in my circumstances it's no hardship to keep grinding down the bevel to within one mill of the edge. However, if I was a site craftsman working with just an oil stone I think I'd have noticed the additional sharpening burden that came when laminated Bailey irons switched to non-laminated. I'm surprised that wasn't noted somewhere in the historical record?
Incidentally, this is the single polished bevel of a Record laminated iron,
The lamination line is no longer visible (I sharpen on diamond stones and finish on the pink and yellow "scary sharp" papers, I forget what grit they are). If I was to grind this edge the lamination line would magically re-appear. I've no idea why that is the case.
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it is odd that the change from laminated to solid steel seems to have gone largely unremarked upon - the only written statement from any modern manufacturer that has turned up is Stanley's slightly apologetic advert for laminated irons in the 30s which seems designed largely to anticipate the grumbles of uneducated users who might mistake the improved sharpening times for a sign the quality of the steel had got worse.
Perhaps by the time laminated irons were dropped by Record and Stanley in the 1950s there were just so few trademen who cared/noticed compared to the new audience of DIYers that their voices were no longer heard.
Perhaps by the time laminated irons were dropped by Record and Stanley in the 1950s there were just so few trademen who cared/noticed compared to the new audience of DIYers that their voices were no longer heard.
bugbear
Established Member
I think virtually any steel, regardless of hardness, will give a mirror finish with a fine enough grit. So at high grit, both laminations have the same finish, and you can't see a line.custard":3h946ycg said:
But at coarser grits. the different response of the different steels give a different finish, resulting in a visible line.
<pedant>There is no "line", it's just a boundary.</pedant>
BugBear
custard":3pkcrxxw said:
When you're grinding, the particles cut deeper on the soft steel and it behaves differently (the structure of the grooves, how much it deforms when cut, etc), and the line also seems to take some abuse. When you're honing with synthetic abrasives, the grooves become relatively uniform and the polish is uniform and no damage is done at the line, so you don't see it.
If you switch back to a few strokes across the bevel with something like a slurried slate, the abrasive will regain the disparity since it's about the same hardness as the steel but cuts the soft steel quickly and can't polish it.
That's pretty much it. Same thing applies when sharpening something like a soft pocket knife - the disparity between the larger particle natural stones and the small particle synthetics will show up as the natural stones will be able to cut the softer steel better than they would on a harder knife.
custard
Established Member
I've dug out a few more laminated irons, with a view to getting them fit for work. I'd rejected them all for one reason or another; but they're excellent quality, seventy year old tools, so it's a pity not to get them working again.
Several of these laminated iron had what's probably the most common problem you'll encounter, a pronounced belly on the non bevel face. You can see it here, a few passes on a stone show the abrasive is only hitting in the centre of the iron. If you try using that iron as is you risk getting shavings jammed under the cap iron,
Some people gently hammer the corners of the cap iron to get a tight fit, but that's not such a good solution if you have a Record Stay-Set cap iron or if you swap around several irons in the same plane. You can always flatten off the back of the iron, but that can be a really long arduous job, and for an iron that costs a couple of quid it's not how I want to spend my time. There's always "the ruler trick", but personally I'm moving away from that as I don't want a mix of irons, some that need a ruler to sharpen and some that don't.
A good whack with a nylon faced hammer right on the high point of the belly will often fix the problem, turning a convex back into a fractionally concave surface that's perfect for stoning flat. But I've hesitated to do that with laminated irons up to now because of the risk of cracking the hard steel. However, that's probably a mistake, they either get sorted or they're just ballast. So I decided to try the kill or cure remedy of the nylon hammer...
I did three and they all turned out fine, no sign of cracking. That's no guarantee that a fourth wouldn't have split, but faced with the problem again I wouldn't hesitate to give it a whack.
Several of these laminated iron had what's probably the most common problem you'll encounter, a pronounced belly on the non bevel face. You can see it here, a few passes on a stone show the abrasive is only hitting in the centre of the iron. If you try using that iron as is you risk getting shavings jammed under the cap iron,
Some people gently hammer the corners of the cap iron to get a tight fit, but that's not such a good solution if you have a Record Stay-Set cap iron or if you swap around several irons in the same plane. You can always flatten off the back of the iron, but that can be a really long arduous job, and for an iron that costs a couple of quid it's not how I want to spend my time. There's always "the ruler trick", but personally I'm moving away from that as I don't want a mix of irons, some that need a ruler to sharpen and some that don't.
A good whack with a nylon faced hammer right on the high point of the belly will often fix the problem, turning a convex back into a fractionally concave surface that's perfect for stoning flat. But I've hesitated to do that with laminated irons up to now because of the risk of cracking the hard steel. However, that's probably a mistake, they either get sorted or they're just ballast. So I decided to try the kill or cure remedy of the nylon hammer...
I did three and they all turned out fine, no sign of cracking. That's no guarantee that a fourth wouldn't have split, but faced with the problem again I wouldn't hesitate to give it a whack.
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I think the laminated irons are more likely to survive the hammer than the non-laminated irons.
It's relatively easy to build a run of glass that will allow you to work those flat without hammering if you'd like, but it's not necessary, of course. Total time for the worst of irons (and they'd be in-plane flat for a 1000 grit-ish stone) is just a few minutes until you get into the weirdo exotic steels that don't like to be sharpened by anything.
It's relatively easy to build a run of glass that will allow you to work those flat without hammering if you'd like, but it's not necessary, of course. Total time for the worst of irons (and they'd be in-plane flat for a 1000 grit-ish stone) is just a few minutes until you get into the weirdo exotic steels that don't like to be sharpened by anything.
custard
Established Member
Another thing I'm finding with laminated Bailey irons is a fair degree of corrosion. Based on a sample size of less than twenty irons it's difficult to be conclusive, plus of course the laminated Bailey irons are older than the non-laminated examples, but I suspect they're more corrosion prone. It would be interested to hear from someone like Music Man if there's any justification for that or if it's just random sample variance?
Anyhow, I had a couple of laminated irons which were deeply pitted. IMO pits on the cutting edge renders an iron useless, so they're for the bin. But there was one which might be salvageable, this is the bevel side showing the lamination line, not too badly corroded on that side (not that corrosion on the bevel side matters in the least),
But the other side wasn't too good. It was flat enough (see the scratch pattern from a some quick check strokes on a stone) but if you drag a fingernail across you feel it's a bit more than corrosion, borderline pitting was my verdict. The other thing about this iron is that the previous owner has tried to get through to good steel with an over enthusiastic, ruler trick type back bevel.
I couldn't see a cap iron ever setting properly against that humungous back bevel so I ground it off,
When I'm preparing for a lengthy flattening job I generally use double sided tape to stick a wooden block on the bevel side. It just gives you something to grip and spares your fingers a bit.
I then set up a metre long run of good quality 120 grit abrasive. You can tape this to your planer beds, but I always get concerned that abrasive dust will contaminate my machine, so I set up this type of arrangement on the sliding table of the table saw. Oops, messed up the photos see the last photo for the set-up
I work the iron the full metre length, averaging about fifty back and forth strokes every minute. So one minute of work equals 100 metres along the sanding belt. After three minutes, or 300 metres, this is what it looked like.
I was disappointed in this result, the pitting was deeper than I'd expected. There's a long way to go yet!
Anyhow, I had a couple of laminated irons which were deeply pitted. IMO pits on the cutting edge renders an iron useless, so they're for the bin. But there was one which might be salvageable, this is the bevel side showing the lamination line, not too badly corroded on that side (not that corrosion on the bevel side matters in the least),
But the other side wasn't too good. It was flat enough (see the scratch pattern from a some quick check strokes on a stone) but if you drag a fingernail across you feel it's a bit more than corrosion, borderline pitting was my verdict. The other thing about this iron is that the previous owner has tried to get through to good steel with an over enthusiastic, ruler trick type back bevel.
I couldn't see a cap iron ever setting properly against that humungous back bevel so I ground it off,
When I'm preparing for a lengthy flattening job I generally use double sided tape to stick a wooden block on the bevel side. It just gives you something to grip and spares your fingers a bit.
I then set up a metre long run of good quality 120 grit abrasive. You can tape this to your planer beds, but I always get concerned that abrasive dust will contaminate my machine, so I set up this type of arrangement on the sliding table of the table saw. Oops, messed up the photos see the last photo for the set-up
I work the iron the full metre length, averaging about fifty back and forth strokes every minute. So one minute of work equals 100 metres along the sanding belt. After three minutes, or 300 metres, this is what it looked like.
I was disappointed in this result, the pitting was deeper than I'd expected. There's a long way to go yet!
