Quangsheng vs Wood River (Jointer and Jack Plane):

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Or just post a piccy of the plane you have your eye on, either publically or PM
Plenty of folks to PM who are really helpful and on here all the time having a brew between jobs.
You can get a fair idea of the quality by Patrick Leitch's blood and gore Stanley plane dating website
HYPERKITTEN.com
It is a rough estimate on the Record planes too, if you look at the iron shapes ...
ie the older having angular edges etc
I am more fussy about the bodys rather than the irons personally
Thick even castings are my preference.
Haven't had to lap my two 51/2's
 
David, to clarify a few points ...

The forum that spent a lot of time discussing the LN-WoodRiver issue was Knots, which was on Fine Woodworking. Off the top of my head, this was around 2007. FWW magazine ran a blog article in which measurements were taken of the WR, LN and a Stanley Bedrock, and this demonstrated that the WR was made from LN castings. It was a hugely controversial topic at the time on a couple of forums.

Regards from Perth

Derek

There was also some relatively lively discussion on sawmillcreek (well, as lively as it can be there - the lack of anyone from WC posting kept it tame compared to woodnet), and the discussions on woodnet were toxic and high energy. There may have been magazine-related commentary on knots, but I didn't post there. Several of the other boutique makers were still posting on woodnet, and they were friends of TLN - and highly biased regarding the whole situation. I was striped by several of them, and several times. I didn't like seeing planes that looked like LN planes, but also recognized that WC had a legitimate point in that they had invested in sticking with LN planes, which were quite popular, and shortly thereafter were left with nothing as far as legitimate planes, and given that the discussions of (speculating here) supply demands (Woodcraft wanting a guarantee that LN wouldn't leave them with bare shelves) was probably going on for quite some time before that. Those would've been joint discussions with LN.

Woodnet is the same site where one of the WC franchise employees suggested that LN may have been well aware of taking planes to China as an option (but franchise employees would've had about zero credibility, so recognizing that anything could've gone any way in the past, it's a possibility, but how likely? Maybe not so much). The part where the planes showed up on QS tool would've been well after this whole thing was developing, and the supply issues were before. Yes on QS tool knocking off more than just the LN planes, there was a whole page of tools that included LN-like items, and combined with them were listings for things like the $4 type (for the set) blister pack chisels. I can't remember if they also had some of the LV items that got knocked off, or if that was someone else. The website disappeared shortly after the public debate started.

Given how much was at stake for both businesses, I'm not sure I'd trust eithers' account of the situation alone. LN is full of nice folks, but even nice folks tend to tell stories how they like to remember them.

Jeff had mentioned (publicly) on woodnet, IIRC, that WC was trying to find domestic options for making planes, but as you're probably aware, there isn't much made here of relatively low value, and most US industry would see a relatively precisely made device that wholesales for $250 as being low value. I wasn't surprised to see nothing ever come of that.

At the same time all of this was going on, woodcraft was doing some back door marketing by handing out goods. This is something relatively common, but it was poo pooed because it was woodcraft. The boutique makers who were on woodnet pretty much viewed this as conclusions are often viewed in academia - "we believe this, so it's written. If you don't crap on woodcraft, you will be berated".

it's fair for me to say that I like lie nielsen more than woodcraft, it's just an opinion. But I don't much appreciate being told by biased advocates that I should have black and white thinking that matches theirs.
 
Trevanion":37o3llj2 said:
I don't really see what the fuss with brand spanking new premium hand planes is. Yeah, sure they're nice to look at and use but they don't perform much better than an old Stanley or Record plane. I have a collection of Record planes, they cut wood just the same as any other at a fraction of the cost of new.
I don't know what it's like in the UK (or the USA), but over here (NZ), if you want a "bedrock" style plane it's often cheaper to buy a brand spanking new Lie-Nielsen premium model than a beaten up Stanley Bedrock. Personally, I have a mixture of old and new. My "go to" planes are two repaired (brazed) old Records and a Clifton.

But what I don't understand is why people buy hobby tools from disreputable countries like China - turning their backs on struggling industries in their own countries. Instead of getting pleasure, I'd cringe everytime I used the tool. It's different when your using the tool for employment where making a living comes ahead of pleasure. But for the weekend warrior.... ?

Cheers, Vann.
 
Vann":19f4k7gp said:
But what I don't understand is why people buy hobby tools from disreputable countries like China - turning their backs on struggling industries in their own countries. Instead of getting pleasure, I'd cringe everytime I used the tool. It's different when your using the tool for employment where making a living comes ahead of pleasure. But for the weekend warrior.... ?

Cheers, Vann.

As has been discussed earlier, sometimes it isn't always easy to know where things are made, and some hobbyists might not even care. For example, I have a new 'Premium' Stanley Sweetheart Low Angle Jack. It is a nice thing. The plane body is made in Mexico, the blade and breaker are made in the Uk, and the company is head quartered in the USA, am I supposed to be cringing or not?

The Workshop Heaven Luban/QS are a good example of Chinese manufacturing getting it right. If it is your hobby and you couldn't stretch to a Clifton or a Lie Nielson, then It is another option.
 
Bodgers":2pzwuagv said:
...The plane body is made in Mexico, the blade and breaker are made in the Uk, and the company is head quartered in the USA, am I supposed to be cringing or not?...
I'd consider whether any of those 3 countries fitted my definition of disreputable. I guess the USA might be questionable at this point in time... (hammer) :wink:

If I couldn't afford a nice Lie-Nielsen or Clifton then I'd go for an old Stanley or Record (and have done on many occasions) simply for ethical reasons. My pleasure in my tools is reduced if I've spent my scarce hobby funds on supporting industries in countries with known human rights abuses. Your mileage may differ.

Cheers, Vann.
 
Jeff had mentioned (publicly) on woodnet, IIRC, that WC was trying to find domestic options for making planes, but as you're probably aware, there isn't much made here of relatively low value, and most US industry would see a relatively precisely made device that wholesales for $250 as being low value. I wasn't surprised to see nothing ever come of that.

David, it is clear that Woodcraft was seeking a cheaper option (than LN) to sell. Perhaps even an option with a higher production rate. However, none of that excuses a company deliberately taking someone else's product and copying it as exactly as they could, even down to the trade dress (with the same brass lever cap). And faults and all! It was absolutely obvious that they were attempting to offer the public the same fare but cheaper, and at a cheaper production cost - which did not mean the same quality (the adjuster on Mk 1 was a really wimpy length of steel). This is not about competing with another by developing a product oneself - this was about stealing the R&D of LN and not paying for it. (Yes, the LN planes are based on Stanley models, but they are not cast from Stanley planes. The WR planes were cast directly from LN models. It is about profit margins. Clifton took the same high ground that LN did - they developed their own version of the Stanley Bedrock). Woodcraft sent across actual LN planes to the QS factory to copy. That is theft, and there is no other way to refer to it. The fact that they brought out a Mk 2 which was completely different is evidence for this.

All this left a bad taste in the mouth of the generation of woodworkers that were around on the forums at that time. There are a whole bunch of others for whom the history is missing and the emotions are absent. They are likely puzzled at the animosity aimed at QS. The Mk 3 QS plane is a really nice, quality tool. It is now closer to a Stanley copy than a LN copy. The trade dress is no longer saying "LN on the cheap. Fool your mates". I would recommend it as a good plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Thanks for the extra info David. It does not surprise me that the situation is more complex than some would expect.

I still don't understand why copying a plane without a patent is an issue. Record was a blatant copy, aside the paint and name on the lever cap. Many of them were made during the 1930's in jolly old England. And England that at that time had 25% of its population and 30% of its landmass. But I would assume we can gloss over that? Perhaps I should hold off a Vesper tool purchase? Mainly due to my concern than a former colony has not yet fully got to grips with the needs of its indigenous people?

I don't dispute China has some serious issues, however, to assume where QS planes are made is some kind of hell hole is just stupid. In fact, wages have risen and quality of life improved for so many in China to the point where companies, especially textiles, are looking to move to Vietnam or Bangladesh.

It must be odd for someone coming into woodworking. First they must claim the moral high ground for ethical purchasing on everything. Books, clothing, understand global political movements and then try and make something.

Thankfully we seemed to of "Jumped the Shark" on this. I can now purchase a boutique lump hammer made using a Harbour Freight press, but that's ok because "IMO there is a proper place for HF. Tools like this (almost all materials – not labor – and for a single job)) are that place." What has been described there is a lump hammer I can buy for less than £10.00 :lol:
 
G S Haydon":1desy36z said:
...I don't dispute China has some serious issues, however, to assume where QS planes are made is some kind of hell hole is just stupid...
I have not assumed that. And please be careful bandying around the term "stupid", it could taken with offence.

My problem is not with the QS factory, but with any nation that sponsors human rights abuses. Would you have bought from Nazi Germany (had you been around back then)? They did magnificent engineering, so why not?

I don't think I have a problem with QS copying traditional designs. Lie-Nielsen and Clifton have. As you say, Record did (and I like my Record planes). I do have a problem with them copying Veritas designs.

Cheers, Vann.
 
Vann

Thanks for the reply and sorry if the "stupid" came over as harsh. Conversations on keyboards are at best pretty awful. Comparing China to Nazi Germany is pretty far fetched at this point. It would be fair if Mao was there, but much is changing. It seems the whole world is sourcing from China and sources similar, from I Phones to a press from Harbour Freight.

Would I have purchased from Nazi Germany? Unlikely on a few sides. Number one they were fascist and exterminated humans on an industrial scale. Bits of my family are on a beach on France. Other family members, now passed, never purchased from Japan ever again due to their experiences.

I think you and I are nearly 100% in agreement on copying, and your sign off really seals it. I just had enough of the BS from people who influence new woodworkers. On one hand we've been told to turn our back on people who copy tools, especially tite mark gauges. However those people will happily work for those who seem to make something pretty damn close to a veritas spokeshave https://www.dictum.com/en/dictum-planes ... ade-703337

Like you, I enjoy using old tools and restoring them. Also, I'd like to own a Clifton. I just get bored that whenever some asks "what should I buy" it become a "tut-tut" unless you buy Lie-Nielsen et al.
 
I think the guy only asked which plane was a nicer one for the money, Not about Hand plane politics.
 
I have most of the makes of the planes listed above apart from the Woodriver, Clifton is my favourite but you know what there is very little between any of them, if (and here's my secret) they are sharp!
 
Trevanion":2gnq1ygf said:
I think the guy only asked which plane was a nicer one for the money, Not about Hand plane politics.

Could not agree more. The only reason I offer a counter is because, every time the question comes up, people pour scorn on the two products mentioned by the OP. And its all to easy for those with "moral high ground" to stick the boot in when they have their own bias. The OP had already "narrowed down" the choice and wanted thoughts on the two he wanted, not why he was wrong to purchase something from China.
 
Graham, has someone written that the OP should not purchase a plane made in China? Interesting interpretation.

Edit: this should have asked, "Is the general theme here that the OP should not purchase a plane made in China?"

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Max Power":q7kif2al said:
They're all Chinese rip offs of Lie Nielsen products , yes Lie Nielsens were based on earlier Stanleys but at least Lie Nielsen improved them through product development and brought something different to the market.
The Chinese versions have made no attempt to add any input and are blatant rip offs , as with so many other copies of western goods.
Buy one plane either a Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley or hopefully a Clifton , they all hold their money well and you'll be helping the long term tool development and manufacturing of honest companies

Close enough, Derek?
 
Vann":1cy4hahx said:
Bodgers":1cy4hahx said:
...The plane body is made in Mexico, the blade and breaker are made in the Uk, and the company is head quartered in the USA, am I supposed to be cringing or not?...
I'd consider whether any of those 3 countries fitted my definition of disreputable. I guess the USA might be questionable at this point in time... (hammer) :wink:

If I couldn't afford a nice Lie-Nielsen or Clifton then I'd go for an old Stanley or Record (and have done on many occasions) simply for ethical reasons. My pleasure in my tools is reduced if I've spent my scarce hobby funds on supporting industries in countries with known human rights abuses. Your mileage may differ.

Cheers, Vann.

Another?
 
I'm not having that it's ethically wrong to buy a plane from China. There is no way that the likes of Lie Nielsen hold some sort of moral high ground they didn't invent the plane.
I own a Quangshen plane and its beautifully engineered and well finished, I wouldn't care if it came from the moon let alone China, I also own a Lie Nielsen you know what there is very little difference, if any. The major difference is cost and and If Lie Nielsen are worried they can reduce their price, maybe outsource some of their parts from China!
There is only one winner here the consumer.
 
The OP asked .... "I have narrowed it down to the Wood River models and the Quangsheng models. I know they are pretty much the same but there are some differences that I can't seem to find. Can anyone recommend one over the other? "

There have been several replies that actually attempted to explain the differences and why there was a Mk 1, Mk 2 and Mk 3 QS.

Summary: The Mk 1 is no longer. The Mk 2 is around but a poor design. Be careful that you do not buy one thinking it is the same as the Mk 3, simply because it comes out of the QS factory. The Mk 3 (which is the current WoodRiver) is an excellent plane.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
large red":zc5pcfbe said:
I'm not having that it's ethically wrong to buy a plane from China. There is no way that the likes of Lie Nielsen hold some sort of moral high ground they didn't invent the plane.
I own a Quangshen plane and its beautifully engineered and well finished, I wouldn't care if it came from the moon let alone China, I also own a Lie Nielsen you know what there is very little difference, if any. The major difference is cost and and If Lie Nielsen are worried they can reduce their price, maybe outsource some of their parts from China!
There is only one winner here the consumer.

That is terribly simplistic, and it ends with local manufacturers no longer being local manufacturers, but manufacturing in other countries. Not only does one lose local expertise, and keeping revenue within a country, along with the jobs it creates locally, but the incentive to compete goes as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Derek

I found the same in 2014. My review is not as well written or presented as one of yours, but the point is, the Woodriver is excellent https://www.gshaydon.co.uk/blog/woodriver-plane-review . We are now nearly in 2019. I can't imagine that any retailer has early versions being sold new at this point.

On your thoughts shared with large red, he does pretty much have it. Lie-Nielsen are doing very well, thanks to their excellent attitude and quality of product. So are WoodRiver. There is a good(ish) balance. To my knowledge there is no risk of LN going bust any time soon. Having good trade relations with other countries is also something that can be a very good thing.

How much do you own and use that was made in AUS? It's highly likely that the steel used in many tools you own, or those that are made in China, are made from ore mined in many of the various massive Iron ore mines in AUS. So AUS has a big export in ore. China does not have this ore so it must trade. Trade happens and is something far beyond a few boutique tools made in small factories.
 
Graham, I am not referring to having trading partners. I am referring to outsourcing manufacture to drop costs when goods could be manufactured locally. The path leads inevitably to the loss of local jobs. That is what has happened to Australian manufacturing. There is nothing of substance any longer.

LN does well because they have a good reputation, and there are those willing to pay their price. WR does well because there are those that are not willing to pay the price. LN will survive because there is sufficient demand to keep them going. That does not alter the sentiment in the paragraph above.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 

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