Professional forum?

[Tom K]

Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.

I don't think anyone has said that. The point that many are trying to get across is that there is a wealth of knowledge on the forum available from experts from all walks of life and that being a pro is not a guarantee of ability or indeed professionalism. Ask away in any of the available sections if there is enough traffic on any particular subject it may end up getting its own section "Metalworking" being the most recent.

 

[Adam9453]

I'm afraid cornishjoinery you seem to be missing the point which has been repeated many times, whatever you want to know or ask about, just post a topic in the most relative area. People will reply if they have advice to offer.
Creating a trade only section is just unneccesary given the number of sections already available and would potentially just reduce the number of people considering helping you.
The old adage applies "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Why try changing the forum when the things you refer to are already being discussed without any problems.

 

[cornishjoinery]

I was/am not trying to fix anything, just wondered if we could consider one section for trade related issues. It may be only ever used a few times a year regarding some issues but would be useful to tradesman. Why do people think that this if this was to happen the whole forum would explode and collapse in one Huge pile of saw dust!? If it's not going to work here then will start a seperate forum. I just wanted ease of use so didn't have to troll through pages of unrelated issues
Someone on here must be able to set up a vote system?

 

[Lons]

the whole forum would explode and collapse in one Huge pile of saw dust!?

Have I missed something?

I don't remember any insinuations or suggestions that might happen and I seriously doubt it's entered the mind of anyone who bothered to reply to the OP.

Knickers in a twist over nothing methinks.

 

[Jelly]

I have no problem about people earning a living working with wood describing themselves as tradesmen , but they are not professionals.
A professional is someone who is a member of a professional body and could not practice if they were not.

Membership is not a strict requirement to practice in the spheres of either of my professional bodies (Royal Society of Chemistry and Institution of Chemical Engineers), but both provide Chartership, Registration and Incorporation (respectively) to certify minimum standards of competence and experience.

I see no difference between that and membership of the Guild of Master Craftsmen or the Institute of Carpenters (who have a very rigourous exam system in place) for a woodworker.

 

[Inoffthered]

That was point at the beginning, a section for trade, professional, paid, God knows What is politically correct anymore on here, to discuss issues Like payment, vans, tax codes, clients etc. Stuff that hobbyists would find boring or of no interest. I can't see why people would find that so hard

You could start a "Professionals" thread but for some of the items in your list of topics above, but I would respectfully suggest that other professionals are the last people to talk to. I have a number of clients that are professionals and over the years I have lost count of the number of referrals where i have had to dig people out of the mess they have gotten themselves into by discussing business issues with mates in the same trade. I have seen all manner of tax saving schemes adopted by people who followed what their mates were doing without realising that the basic premise of the scheme was fundamentally flawed and based on a misconception.

By all means consult your professional brethren to find the best place to buy walnut or technical chippy stuff but if you have queries of a more general commercial/legal/tax nature, you may find that some of the hobbyists on this forum may actually be more able to provide advice.

 

[bugbear]

CJ - Fair comment, but maybe I would blame the hike in price more on the greed of the owner of the yard than the "weekend warrior".

I overheard two antique dealers ("professionals") agreeing vehemently, and at length, that the public should not be allowed to attend antique auctions, because sometimes the public (in their implied ignorance) pay too much, driving prices up.

If you've ever sold items at auction, you might have "an opinion" on this...



BugBear

 

[AJB Temple]

The trade v amateur debate will roll on forever. Both camps have their fair share of know it alls.

I actually think that the trades have an advantage these days that they didn't have 20 years ago. The DIY sheds have struggled for a while and there has been significant consolidation in the market. Schools (state anyway) no longer teach woodwork and metalwork to anything like the extent that they used to do. There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly). And regulation, such as the Part P rules have had the effect of protecting some trades to a degree that was not the case 20 years ago.

So in many ways tradesman are in something of a golden era. The reporting schemes are a good idea to try to weed out the good ones from the cowboys. All the local tradesmen I have employed to do jobs this year have participated in this.

My experience of employing trades (I used to be a property developer for a while) is that you can certainly find some excellent skilled people. Quite often though, these skills do not translate into running a business efficiently and if I were (say) a carpenter, I am not sure I would turn to other carpenters for advice on more general business matters. Very often the business side of small plumbing, electrical, groundwork, joinery and painting & decorating businesses is handled by the wife. Sometimes this works extremely well but can also be the weak link as communications can be terrible. For example, near me there is a very good fencer. He does excellent work. He lets his wife handle the customer bookings and make appointments etc. She is incompetent and slow at this and it costs him business. It cost him my business actually. His main local competitor knows this and operates a fast response charm offensive which means he cleans up 80% of the available local work.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

BB - certainly, but auctions are a bit different. If I buy something for £100 at an auction, it might deprive a dealer the chance to buy at £70 and sell to me at £100 - it hasn't put the price up at all, just stopped a dealer making a fast buck.
We knew who all the dealers were and knew they had to resell - therefore if was safe to outbid them (within reason, of course).

 

[Phil Pascoe]

" ...There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly)...

I do most things except wet trades quite happily, but I's sooner stick needles in my eyes than assemble flat pack furniture. :lol:

 

[John Brown]

As far as I know, the word "professional" used to mean something quite specifc, lawyer, doctor, that sort of thing. Working with wood, in any capacity, would have been a "trade".
These days it means nothing or anything. I can buy toothpaste in the supermarket that has the tag "professional" on the name, but that doesn't make me a dentist.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Indeed. "Professional" when applied to tools often means they are best avoided.

 

[Lons]

The trade v amateur debate will roll on forever. Both camps have their fair share of know it alls.

I actually think that the trades have an advantage these days that they didn't have 20 years ago. The DIY sheds have struggled for a while and there has been significant consolidation in the market. Schools (state anyway) no longer teach woodwork and metalwork to anything like the extent that they used to do. There is far less of a culture of DIY amongst the twenty/thirty years old generation than there used to be: far fewer young couples are willing to tackle DIY (most of my staff in London would have no idea how to do a simple thing like pout up a shelf: they struggle with flatpack assembly). And regulation, such as the Part P rules have had the effect of protecting some trades to a degree that was not the case 20 years ago.

So in many ways tradesman are in something of a golden era. The reporting schemes are a good idea to try to weed out the good ones from the cowboys. All the local tradesmen I have employed to do jobs this year have participated in this.

My experience of employing trades (I used to be a property developer for a while) is that you can certainly find some excellent skilled people. Quite often though, these skills do not translate into running a business efficiently and if I were (say) a carpenter, I am not sure I would turn to other carpenters for advice on more general business matters. Very often the business side of small plumbing, electrical, groundwork, joinery and painting & decorating businesses is handled by the wife. Sometimes this works extremely well but can also be the weak link as communications can be terrible. For example, near me there is a very good fencer. He does excellent work. He lets his wife handle the customer bookings and make appointments etc. She is incompetent and slow at this and it costs him business. It cost him my business actually. His main local competitor knows this and operates a fast response charm offensive which means he cleans up 80% of the available local work.

Absolutely spot on =D> =D> I agree with that wholeheartedly but with one caveat.
Not all of the reporting systems and trade schemes are what they seem and their vetting systems in many cases easy to bypass. They are driven to enlist as many members as possible as they need membership and advertising income or funding to survive. Guarantees are insurance based and complicated and in reality the bodies have no teeth. Personal recommendation and research before employing someone still makes the most sense imho

My business background experience and training ensured that I was disciplined enough to look after the detail even though it's difficult to find the motivation to do the paperwork and return calls at the end of a long day though no excuse for poor communications with a mobile phone. By responding to everyone very quickly even the enquiries of little benefit to me I gained and more importantly kept a loyal customer base who were prepared to pay a reasonable price for a good job by someone they could trust. It's that little word trust that is worth the most to customers and what unsuccessful businesses forget.

My father in law many years ago had some large sums to invest and I suggested that he buy up some properties which at the time were going for a song, I would do them up for him and he could rent them out. A couple of his golfing buddies, an accountant and a solicitor both said he would lose money and persuaded him to invest in the stock market where he lost 70% of his savings. The houses in question have quadrupled in value and there is no shortage of tenants.

I also know a very good bricklayer who takes great pride in his work but he has absolutely no idea of his overhead cost or even if he's making a profit on the job which rather confirms some of your comments.

I also think that the sheds and internet suppliers have made it very easy for unqualified and inexperienced unscrupulous people to fleece the public. Years ago, to enable you to work for yourself you would need a sizeable investment in tools and equipment which is not the case today. The sheds etc have fuelled the flood of very cheap chiwanese tools and machinery and the huge growth of TV progs which suggest anyone can "do it" with cardboard and mdf doesn't help.
Never did me any harm of course as they always need someone to pick up the pieces afterwards.

Bob

 

[Lons]

I do most things except wet trades quite happily, but I's sooner stick needles in my eyes than assemble flat pack furniture. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: Not a fan of Ikea then Phil? :wink:

 

[Droogs]

thick_mike. I'm never taking you down the pub, no interest in dominos indeed :shock:

 

[WoodMangler]

Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.

I just wonder if you're this rude and arrogant to those who have the misfortune to be your customers...

 

[Wizard9999]

Having just caught up on this thread I really can't see that it is going anywhere now. Can the various parties just agree to disagree? The powers that be have no doubt seen it, they will decide if they want to start a new board for commercial matters or not.

Terry.

 

[John Brown]

Hi Rodders, what was the person asking for, i forget. Probably after a ton of hardwood for less than a fiver. Its true hobbyist, DIYers do drive the price of timber up, spoken to a few tradesman now saying same thing and to 2 timber yards who admit they can bump up the prices because so many weekend warriors are coming to buy timber.And before you go on at me for having something against the hobbyist, look at the large majority of posts on this thread, i would say there is a clear offensive to people that earn money from woodworking.

I just wonder if you're this rude and arrogant to those who have the misfortune to be your customers...

You don't have "customers" when you're a professional. You have "clients".

 

[Kalimna]

Well, I don't have 'clients', I have 'patients'

Adam S, rather tired after night shift.

 

[siggy_7]

Just read this whole thread in its entirity, what a laugh!

My two penneth' - I think the OP's request for a "Professional forum" has been a little misinterpreted. From his replies I think what he wants is a dedicated forum related to the aspects of being a professional/tradesman other than doing the work - principally the commercial/business aspects. I don't see why this is so objectionable - currently we have this behemoth that is "General Woodworking" where matters of price/rates occassionally surface which in my view is some way from the remit of a sub-forum on "General Woodworking", particularly one where lots of people who don't get paid for their work also read and contribute. Persionally I find it strange that a group of people who work with wood as a business would want to discuss commercial and pricing aspects on an open forum - if it were my living I would consider such information to be "commercially sensitive" but if that's what the OP wants then why not? It would also be a helpful resource for people looking to get into woodworking as a career to see the commercial realities of making a living out of it.

I would be disappointed if a "Professional" sub-forum also contained lots of posts about projects and techniques - both non-paid and paid woodworkers currently post in "General Woodworking" and "Projects" sub-forums with some cracking posts. I like seeing the projects that all of us tackle and the techniques that we use, I learn a lot from seeing the variety on offer and I don't see a reason to close it off. But I don't think that is what is being requested here.

Why does everyone assume on here that if you say your a tradesman that you are a cowboy, it's like it's a naughty word on here, hush hush, if you say you get paid then you must be dung. It's almost like the hobbyist looks down on us.

Not at all - there are some fantastic people "in the trade" on this forum. I have used tradesmen in my house in the last couple of years (plumbers and electricians, where I wasn't allowed by building codes to do work myself) who I got on well with and would wholly recommend to others. If I may be so bold, it is your tone adopted when making daft comments like "amateurs should use offcuts to prevent putting up my prices" that causes friction. If I tried to make most of the projects I do with "offcuts" I'd be there for a month of Sundays sourcing material and another month of Sundays gluing up small pieces and end up with a right dog's breakfast - my time away from work is much more precious than that. Nothing puts my back up quicker than a guy "in the trade" who thinks he knows it all, treats his knowledge and skills as a completely closed shop and berates the work of people who attain skills out of passion and interest as a hobby rather than a career (of course, not suggesting that you would look down on the "hobbyist", would you?). Equally, there are few things more enjoyable to me than chatting through skills of a craft/trade with someone that has a wealth of experience and is happy to share it with someone who's interested in learning something.