Planing, do you use pushbocks?

[Sgian Dubh]

Funny how my simple, safe and perfectly legit suggestions have caused such a panic (amongst the usual suspects :lol: !)

Your suggestions aren't causing me to panic Jacob. I'll simply ignore your advice regarding this technique, as usual. I'll continue surfacing and edging in the conventional manner (hand over hand with a correctly set bridge guard appropriate to the process), and whenever it's required I'll continue to pass on those conventional techniques to learners. Yes, there are times when the standard hand feeding technique can't be used, but there are strategies to deal with those occasions, with some common suggestions for coping at those times provided at the HSE website you linked to. Slainte.

 

[powertools]

From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.

 

[Jacob]

..... I'll simply ignore your advice regarding this technique, as usual.....

Please do!
I hate to think I might be distracting people from their comfortable and old familiar ways but I was merely attempting to answer the OPs question.
My answer (in case anybody has missed it) was no. Alternative suggestions clearly were a bit disturbing for many.

 

[MrTeroo]

The persistent debate troll
This type of troll loves a good argument. They can take a great, thoroughly researched and fact-based piece of content, and come at it from all opposing discussion angles to challenge its message. They believe they're right, and everyone else is wrong. You'll often also find them leaving long threads or arguments with other commenters in community comment sections, and they're always determined to have the last word -- continuing to comment until other users give up.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.

If you're going to use a word like ludicrous I think I can get away with saying your comment is unadulterated twaddle. I have used everything from three phase heavy duty industrial planers with up to seven combined feet of infeed and outfeed tables happy to plough through stuff twenty inches wide to dinky single phase bench top planers made out of what appeared to be monkey metal no more than a couple of feet long and barely able to take the skin off a rice pudding: the basic approach to surfacing and edging at either end of the scale is essentially the same, and the only thing that changes is the size and weight of material that can be handled. What you're claiming is the equivalent of saying that the basic principles of hand plane use aren't the same for a no 4 smoothing plane as they are for a no 7 try plane, which is obviously not the case. Incidentally, your Kity 535 isn't the smallest planer I've seen or used. Slainte.

 

[Noel]

Why is the golden rule of "keep hands away from spinning blades" ignored for jointing operations? Pushing flat timber (as illustrated in an earlier video) with hands near the blades has many dangers, hands slip, sweaty palms on a shiny surface etc, etc. by lifting a hand off the stock to get over the bridge guard further reduces control. Guard or not, fingers can slip/move and hit the cutters. Push blocks, especially those with a lower edge/lip, push sticks etc surely make sense. In my view "traditional" and "conventional" methods aren't always the best.

 

[Jacob]

Using push sticks on a surface planer is NOT approved by the HSE or a recommended way of safely using the planer, push blocks are HSE recommended when planing short lengths of timber but my personal advice is try not to surface anything less than 400mm long.

If a trainer advised someone to use the planer in the way being advised by Jacob they may be liable if an accident were to happen. In industry we need to work within ACOP's and safe systems of work, working in your own workshop means you don't have to follow HSE advice but they do recommend techniques for reasons.

We have been here several times before :roll:

Cheers Peter

I think what sent this thread off the rails was Peters' post here.
He was wrong.
Push sticks ARE 'approved' for use with a surface planer, thought they only show one way of using one, and they don't say it in so many words. They include a design for a push stick which isn't official or mandatory in any way, and in fact isn't very good IMHO.
The details they provide are very skimpy - it's more about general principles with just a few 'helpful' references to detailed procedures.
Unfortunately this gives enormous scope for barrack room lawyers to tediously cluck away disapprovingly like nervous chickens* :lol: but the rules would be incredibly tedious, verging on the impossible, if every eventuality was covered in detail.

*it even brought Roger out from under his stone! :lol:

 

[Jacob]

From what i have taken the time to read this thread is loudricous. The so called experts are using big industrial machinery and some of us are using much smaller machines in my case a Kity 535 and what is safe to do is very different.

Not that different, large or small.
The main thing is to keep your hands away from cutters. It's always possible to get it wrong as even with full guarding there has to be a slot to poke the wood in somewhere. People have been known to get their hands stuck in power feeds even!

 

[ColeyS1]

If you discovered an amazing football player, would you teach him to lace up his boots properly, or make him wear stilts so he doesn't damage his feet [SMILING FACE WITH OPEN MOUTH]

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[Jacob]

Why is the golden rule of "keep hands away from spinning blades" ignored for jointing operations? Pushing flat timber (as illustrated in an earlier video) with hands near the blades has many dangers, hands slip, sweaty palms on a shiny surface etc, etc. by lifting a hand off the stock to get over the bridge guard further reduces control. Guard or not, fingers can slip/move and hit the cutters. Push blocks, especially those with a lower edge/lip, push sticks etc surely make sense. In my view "traditional" and "conventional" methods aren't always the best.

It's a bit of a failure in the docs.
They are only advisory in many parts and sometimes the advice isn't too good; there's a TS illustration showing a bevel being cut in a classically dangerous way i.e. against the fence. This can result in the offcut getting jammed against the blade and slung out like a bolt from a crossbow. I've had this happen and it penetrated the plaster board opposite.
They show it with a thin fence on edge which reduces the risk to some extent, but many fences don't have this facility and there is nothing in the text.
Basically it's the wrong way to cut a bevel.
They also show a TS with an independently mounted guard - not attached to the american style riving knife. The crown guard on riving knife is a much safer option as this will prevent the workpiece lifting.

The general advice is good, the detail often lacking, slipshod and ill considered.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The problem is removing any physical barrier between you and the cutter block and push sticks don't get over this, push blocks do!!!

The rebating on the surface planer is a red herring, it has shaw guards over the cutter block (a physical barrier) also planner produced since 1995 are designed so you can't rebate on them and under the ACOP's if you had an accident in a commercial workshop rebating on a planer you would be liable for prosecution if you have access to either a router table or spindle moulder, this has been the case since 1998.

Some people clearly need to keep up!

I would also advice not having trailing leads or trip hazards around the machines, I am sure Jacob lot his in place as a talking point

Push blocks are safer than push sticks on the planer offering much better control and grip over the timber and they act as a physical barrier if the worst were to happen.

I don't condone the removal of guards but you can use plush blocks and bridge guards. This is how the Americans do it, these boomerang guards are also not approved in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqFGp7V55Q

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

The problem is removing any physical barrier between you and the cutter block and push sticks don't get over this, push blocks do!!!

The rebating on the surface planer is a red herring, it has shaw guards over the cutter block (a physical barrier) also planner produced since 1995 are designed so you can't rebate on them and under the ACOP's if you had an accident in a commercial workshop rebating on a planer you would be liable for prosecution if you have access to either a router table or spindle moulder, this has been the case since 1998.

Some people clearly need to keep up!

I would also advice not having trailing leads or trip hazards around the machines, I am sure Jacob lot his in place as a talking point

Push blocks are safer than push sticks on the planer offering much better control and grip over the timber and they act as a physical barrier if the worst were to happen.

I don't condone the removal of guards but you can use plush blocks and bridge guards. This is how the Americans do it, these boomerang guards are also not approved in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uqFGp7V55Q

Cheers Peter

Barrack room lawyers never sleep!
Push sticks take you completely and safely away from the cutter and give you better reach and control.
Push sticks aren't deprecated in any way, anywhere in the safety docs, and are recommended and demonstrated in various parts.
Push blocks take you close to the cutters and lead to having to over reach - as you do in you vid - almost stretching out full length on the planer bed! The advice here is not good - but it is only advice not an instruction - 'should' not 'must'.
Nobody condones the removal of guards but the regulations (and common sense) says you can set them back to allow the workpiece through.
You can use push sticks in place of push blocks, very obviously with much greater safety.

How long is this going to go on?

 

[PAC1]

Jacob, I do not know if any one has ever said this to you but repeating the same argument does not make it correct. The method approved and recommended by the HSE for hand surface planing is set out here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf. There is no mention of push sticks because they do not recommend there use. Contrast with the guidance for a table saw. Further they only recommend a push block for use with short lengths of timber (I prefer to hand plane short lengths of timber).
As many have said, if you want to use two push sticks to surface plane that is a matter for you. But do not suggest that it is an approved method of surface planing. The guidance is very clear that people should be properly trained on the method for hand planing on a surface planer. If you want to change the approved method, go and talk to the HSE and come back to this thread only when they have approved the technique.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, I do not know if any one has ever said this to you but repeating the same argument does not make it correct.

It does if it is correct to start with.

The method approved and recommended by the HSE for hand surface planing is set out here http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf. There is no mention of push sticks because they do not recommend there use. ....

If you bother to read the doc you will see that it does recommend push sticks and there is an illustration of one in use and a design for one (not a very good design). Nowhere does it deprecate the use of push sticks and there is nothing to suggest you should not use them for short lengths. The advice they give is just that; 'advice' on the sorts of safety measures you should employ, and not a mandatory instruction or a rule. Using push sticks instead of push blocks obviously fits the bill and is perfectly OK.
What they offer is not THE method but just A method. Nothing to say it can't be improved upon and made safer - there is no detail about their push blocks, they offer a helpful sketch of a push stick which isn't as good as the standard pattern I recommend.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Just a note about how the HSE have arrived at their recommendations.

The history of 'factory safety' goes back to about 1802, when the first legislation about safety and working conditions in factories was passed. A significant move forward was made in 1844, when the first of the Factory Acts required any accident that resulted in death to be investigated by a local surgeon, it's cause established, and a report prepared and submitted to the Civil Service. Later acts extended this to accidents causing injury, and transferred responsibility to Factory Inspectors. Thus, a body of data of accidents, their causes and consequences, has been built up by the HSE's predecessors for about the last 150 years.

Analysis of that data has shown what cause the most accidents, and that has informed legislation about machinery and tooling design, guarding, operation and so on. Thus, riving knives and crown guards on tablesaws (for example) have been mandatory for many years. Spindle brakes are now mandatory on machinery, since it was found that most accidents tended to happen after switch-off while the machine was running down. Some tooling has been banned - French heads on spindle moulders, for example - as they contributed to a disproportionate number of accidents.

Thus, if the HSE recommend a particular method of work, it's because of collected experience from analysis of actual accidents at work over many years. It's most emphatically NOT abstract ideas from chair-polishers. They DO NOT make it up on the hoof.

Edit to correct a couple of dates, and add this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts

 

[Jacob]

..
Thus, if the HSE recommend a particular method of work, it's because of collected experience from analysis of actual accidents at work over many years. It's most emphatically NOT abstract ideas from chair-polishers. They DO NOT make it up on the hoof.

Edit to correct a couple of dates, and add this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts

I've no doubt about their collected knowledge of accident data but I get the firm impression that they've passed the buck over the detailed safety recommendations (they are only recommendations) to some arbitrarily selected experts, who aren't actually that expert. Hence the anomalies and omissions.

Time to lock this thread? I've got nothing else to say - and neither has anybody else!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

..
Thus, if the HSE recommend a particular method of work, it's because of collected experience from analysis of actual accidents at work over many years. It's most emphatically NOT abstract ideas from chair-polishers. They DO NOT make it up on the hoof.

Edit to correct a couple of dates, and add this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_Acts

I've no doubt about their collected knowledge of accident data but I get the firm impression that they've passed the buck over the detailed safety recommendations (they are only recommendations) to some arbitrarily selected experts, who aren't actually that expert. Hence the anomalies and omissions.

Time to lock this thread? I've got nothing else to say - and neither has anybody else!

Suggest you get in touch with them, and tell them they're wrong, in that case.

Don't be too surprised if they tell you that YOU'RE wrong, and produce a lot of evidence to prove it.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Yes we have got something to say, don't remove guards and try to work within the regulations they are there for good reason and update and improve your techniques as better information from a collective body comes forward.

Go off piste at your own risk.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

I don't remove guards or go off piste. Just ignoring and improving on some of the inadequate suggestions from HSE (where they are suggestions - not strict rules). Nothing I do (or recommend) contradicts or doesn't comply with the overall intentions. I operate with a higher level of safety than required by the regs.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I don't remove guards or go off piste. Just ignoring and improving on some of the inadequate suggestions from HSE (where they are suggestions - not strict rules). Nothing I do (or recommend) contradicts or doesn't comply with the overall intentions. I operate with a higher level of safety than required by the regs.

You have shown images of you planing with the guards pulled out of the way and exposing the cutters, this is not within regulations as you well know, they should be set as close as possibly (10mm) to protect the user and those in the vicinity.

Cheers Peter