Planer Thicknesser blades - unusual set-up situation... ?

[jimmer]

this is a lurem c210b combination machine. i have done what research i can. but haven't come across this situation.
normally as i understand it, the outfeed table is completely fixed and therefore can be used to set blade depth.
on my machine however, the outfeed table has almost as much adjustment as the infeed. this uts me in the position fo having no reference point depite having the original blade fitting guide for the machine.
i guess this means i have to set the blade depth using the thicknessing side, in relation to the roller bars?
the out feed table has already been moved so i can't just set to wherever it was before.
also, the thicknessing is tempramental with wood jamming frequently so not ideal as a guide.

from what i can tell, winding up the thickness table with a good piece of mdf on it, the rollers are at least parallel and contact at the same time,

so where do i start? set the cutting circle a fraction below where rollers contact? or try to, using the fitting guide and the height adjust of the outfeed table to set them?

any help would be great!

 

[jimmer]

also, using the guide (located on outfeed table) seems to set the blades lower than the outfeed, which makes no sense to me.
it is original guide and in good condition seemingly, but it should set the blades a fraction of a baw-hair (a couple of thou : ) above the outfeed table, regardless of hieght out feed is set to, if it's suing the outfeed for reference, RIGHT?

 

[marcros]

would you not just set them flush to the outfeed, and when they are co-planar to that, just adjust the outfeed by a thou or two, so that the blades are a knats proud?

I have always used either the oneway multi gauge, or the drag method.

 

[marcros]

i think that the advantage of the adjustable outfeed in part is that you can crete some room to fit the blades, and then move it up nice and close. it is also easier to set them flush and adjust the table for the couple of thou above than to try and do it in one go

 

[jimmer]

sure, agreed that's all fine and good for the planer, but they need to be correct for the proper functioning of the thicknesser, which was already tempramental. i'm lacking on knowledge to diagnose problems with thicknesser funtioning realting to blade height.
i'll research that i guess
once that's good i can then easily set outfeed as you say

 

[marcros]

the thicknesser will cut from the top, so you need to ensure that the thicknesser table is coplanar to the blades and you should be fine.

What i dont know is the correct order to do these things in the first time.

 

[jimmer]

the blade 'height' in the thicknesser is important relative to rollers as i understand it.
i'm going to tryusing a piece of known thickness, settign thicknesser to that thickness, and using the wood to push the blades into the slot.
that way they'll be smae as before. doesn't really sort my problems with functioning of thicknesser tho...

 

[jimmer]

so, what i've done:

1. use the blade guide to align the out feed perfectly to the drum (needed doing)
2. put a piece on MDF of measured thickness in the thicknesser and wind up to that thickness.
3. use this to get the blade protruding the right amount by turning the drum backwards. blade gripping screw just holding it in place
4. then with the guide in place on the out feed, wind outfeed table down til it just touches blades and use guide to set them difinitively.
(this was a good way of verifying that thicknesser table is at least parallel to the drum; blades were nice and parallel to guide when brought round to the top)
5. pass a piec through thicknesser to verify dial setting, un-changed from before blade change - still good.

so up to this point i now know i have the blades protruding the same amount as before, the outfeild table is square (tho perhaps not perfectly flat), and the thicknesser table is at least square to blade, looks good and flat, but can't verify it's alignment along it's length.

so anyway, that will do for the planer, i can now adjust outfeed appropraitely.

BUT the thicknesser is still grumbling and not puching timber through properly.
what's next? the out-roller tension? (what's the proper name for it?) perhaps it's pressing down too much?
all the rollers and drum do need greased but i don't yet have one of those mini grease guns to do it. getting one from ebay asap.
so what's the usual culprit for timber sticking in the thicknesser?

 

[dickm]

Two suggestions.
1. Grandmothers, eggs, etc, but have you thoroughly waxed the thicknesser table? On my C200, that makes a heck of a difference.
2. Are the thickness roller bearings able to drop to the bottom of their slides? Again on the C200, chips can build up in that space and stop the roller engaging with the wood.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

this is a lurem c210b combination machine. i have done what research i can. but haven't come across this situation.
so where do i start? set the cutting circle a fraction below where rollers contact? or try to, using the fitting guide and the height adjust of the outfeed table to set them?
any help would be great!

Thicknessers, and therefore combination planer thicknesser knife setting starts with first principles. And the first principle has nothing to do with either the infeed or outfeed side of the surface planing function, it starts with the arc described by the knives coinciding precisely with the correct offset from this arc of both the infeed roller and the pressure bar on the outfeed side of the thicknessing table. If these settings have become compromised it makes it almost impossible to set the knives correctly using the outfeed table of the surface planing function.

So, I'd start by checking the setting of the thicknessing function's feed roller and the pressure bar in relation to the arc of the knives. This is where the knife setting jig that I'm guessing was supplied with the machine when it was new comes in. If this isn't available you'll need to get one, or you can do the checks using a feeler gauge registered off the thicknessing bed. You can also make up a block of wood to make these checks. Powermatic, the American woodworking machinery maker have a good description of checking this and adjusting the settings at their website here: http://www.powermatic.com/us/en/p/201-p ... 0v/1791261 Whilst this is a different machine to yours, the setting should be about the same. When you get to the website go to the Manual button and download their PDF for this machine (201 Planer, 7.5HP 1PH 230V) and scroll through it to pages 12 and 13. I think you'll find what you need there.

Anyway, once you've got the knives set up correctly to their required arc in relation to the infeed roller and pressure bar, you should be able to replicate the settings using the surface planer outfeed table and a bit of stick with a couple of pencil marks on it. Alternatively, buy a knife setting jig if available from Lurem or their agents. I don't have any experience of that company or their machinery, but first principles are pretty much the same for all planers with a thicknessing function, so the Powermatic guidance I'm pointing you to should be a pretty good place to start. Slainte.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Try something like these, http://www.rutlands.co.uk/sp+planer-bla ... JIG?tyah=y

Not a bad price at the minute. PUWER regulations state that planer knives should only project a maximum of 1.1 mm. Hope this helps.

Mike.

 

[jimmer]

Sgian Dubh, thanks for your detailed reply.
i had figured most of that out by now yes, but was stuck with having to assume previous knife setting, as regards thicknesser side of course, was correct, which it may not have been, of course.
i do also have the knife setting jig, as i said, for the top, which is to say i don't need the stick and pencil mark method, but probably have no chance of finding an original for a lurem from 1978 for setting them on the bottom side! i picked up some feeler guages today and will have a go at that powermatic guide, thanks again for the link

dickm, i use spray on lubricant for the bed, sounds like i should get some proper wax.
and yes for your second suggestion i had read that in another post, by you turns out! i will check under the feed roller bearings as you suggest, thanks

mike, thanks had seen them yes, but unless i can find out what the correct setting is, they won't help much. it's not in either of the 2 manuals i have. HOWEVER, i did notice today stamped on the side of the planer bed, "HN 1.41"
this being a french machine and me being in france, i reckon there's a good chance that stands for Hauteur Normal 1.41mm
but, that is a fair bit more than the current limit for 1.1mm you quote. does it still sound within the right range? could be, given it's an old machine?

 

[jimmer]

so the powermatic manual says both rollers should be 0.81mm below the arc of the cutterhead knives.
ok, great.
short of buying some of the blade setting jigs woodbrains pointed me to, and i guess assuming that the 1.41mm is the relevant measurment, i still have no way of confirming correct projection of the blades from the cutter head though

 

[woodbrains]

Sgian Dubh, thanks for your detailed reply.
i had figured most of that out by now yes, but was stuck with having to assume previous knife setting, as regards thicknesser side of course, was correct, which it may not have been, of course.
i do also have the knife setting jig, as i said, for the top, which is to say i don't need the stick and pencil mark method, but probably have no chance of finding an original for a lurem from 1978 for setting them on the bottom side! i picked up some feeler guages today and will have a go at that powermatic guide, thanks again for the link

dickm, i use spray on, silicone free (apparently) lubricant for the bed, should i wax as well?
and yes for your second suggestion i had found that in another post in a search, i will check under the feed roller bearings as you suggest, thanks

mike, thanks had seen them yes, but unless i can find out what the correct setting is, they won't help much. it's not in either of the 2 manuals i have. HOWEVER, i did notice today stamped on the side of the planer bed, "HN 1.41"
this being a french machine and me being in france, i reckon there's a good chance that stands for Hauteur Normal 1.41mm
but, that is a fair bit more than the current limit for 1.1mm you quote. does it still sound within the right range? could be, given it's an old machine?

Hello,

Yes, it probably will be it. I think you are worrying a bit too much though, .5 mm either way is not going to matter. Especially since you have an adjustable outfeed table. The only thing that might need altering is the thicknesser scale, as accurate as they are! Don't forget, the feed rollers are spring loaded and will compensate for more than the tiny tolerances we are talking here. Set it to 1.1 I bet it will work fine. If not it is easy to add .3 more and test again.

The PUWER regs must be adhered to in industry, but I don't suppose setting yours at 1.4 is going to send the police around.

Mike.

 

[jimmer]

well exactly aye. thanks mike.
i guess 0.31mm is not that much...
i guess i can get an idea with verniers as well, to check it's at least in the ballpark.

thicknesser scale is easy to alter too

righto. know what tomoro looks like then

 

[deema]

Im not familiar with the machine and Im assuming that the blades are on springs and have a wedge that holds them in. A moving outfeed table is really useful and makes setting up the knives very easy if it follows other machines with this arrangement.

Wind the outfeed table up to the top.
Rotate the spindle so that a knife tip is exactly on top dead centre, the highest point in the arc. Make a mark on the fence where this is, you will align all blades to this mark when setting them.
Place a piece of MDF or similar on the outfeed table so that it overlaps the blades. Make sure the MDF board is flat down on the table and tighten up the blade. Move on to the next blade repeating until they are all down.
Now, do the drag test and wind down the outfeed table until you get the required drag. It will be a very small turn of the handle to align the table.

The thicknesser should now work properly. The knives will be set so that they are at their maximum height.

You mention that stuff gets stuck when being fed into the thicknesser. It’s highly likely that is being caused by one or more of the anti kick back fingers having ceased. With the power off, check that all of the fingers move, you should be able to push them in (towards the cutter block) and up.

 

[jimmer]

It’s highly likely that is being caused by one or more of the anti kick back fingers having ceased.

it's not, it doesn't have them.

so you reckon that's standard for a machine with adjustable out feed, for the correct setting for the thicknesser to be taken off the top of the outfeed? kinda makes sense, but completely contrary to what Sgian Dubh said.

i wouldn't need to to use mdf as i have a guide.
i'm yet to ascertain whether the guide sets the blades the necessary couple of thou above the table or not easy to check afterwards.
i'll use the sheet of paper and straight-edge method, rather then the drag test tho.
anyway, thanks for your reply.

i'm going to start by checking the 1.41mm found marked on the machine and set the aldes to that.
also going to try to get some wax this morning

 

[Sgian Dubh]

so you reckon that's standard for a machine with adjustable out feed, for the correct setting for the thicknesser to be taken off the top of the outfeed? kinda makes sense, but completely contrary to what Sgian Dubh said.

The setting of the knife projection doesn't derive from the outfeed table of the surface planing function. First you need to ensure the setting of the feed roller and pressure bar are correct in relation to the projection of the knives from the cutter head - actually, you only need to get this correct for one knife because you can use the projection of this one knife as the datum for setting the other knife or knives. There's usually a bit of tolerance on the knife projection because on most machines there is adjustment available on the pressure bar and the outfeed roller. The pressure bar, once set is fixed and it just gently rubs along the surface of the thicknessed wood. Its position therefore should, in theory, be tangent with the arc described by the knives as they rotate, although in practice the pressure bar is set just a teensy bit light of tangent, i.e., a hair less than the circle's radius. If it's set too low the wood won't pass beneath it and it jams. If it's set too high it doesn't press down on the surface of the planed timber which can cause rippling. The feed roller at the other infeed end in most machines is sprung loaded so it can rise to cope with varied wood thickness yet can still apply sufficient forward drive.

Once you've got this feed roller and pressure bar setting right in relation to the existing projection of the knives (remembering that in the initial setting up phase you can use just one knife to establish these settings), you then use that projection to set the outfeed table of the surface planer, and again, the height of this should be tangent to the arc described by the spinning knives. With this established you can generally use it to reliably change and set replacement knives, unless something has somehow got mysteriously out of whack on the thicknessing side of the machine again. One method is the 'carry a stick method' where you have two pencil lines on the stick to indicate pick up and drop off points. It means dropping the outfeed table a bit to get the carry, and once the knives are set you raise the outfeed table again to the tangent (or frequently just the merest shaving less than tangent). Another method is to use one of the magnetic knife setting jigs where you use the existing (correct) knife projection to establish and set the required projection of replacement knives, which might be wider or narrower than the knives being replaced in the machine, which presumably are being taken out to go to the saw doctor for sharpening, which naturally will make the blades narrower.

There might also be a bit of resetting of rules at the end once all this work has been accomplished, as has been mentioned before. Slainte

 

[katellwood]

I had this in the eighties/ninties

and had a problem with the thicknesser feed (however mine did have kickback teeth)

It turned out that on the end of the planer block (inside) there is a small roller similar to but much smaller than a feed roller for a spindle moulder. This drives a large wheel that powers the chains that drive the infeed and outfeed rollers of the thicknesser (there is a clutch lever next too the thicknesser height wheel which pulls the large wheel away from the small wheel on the end of the block). The rubber had come off this wheel preventing the drive to the large wheel thus stopping the feed rollers.

Also have you lubricated all the chain mechanism powering the autofeed of the thicknesser and ensured the clutch lever spring is effective and not sticking.

Its an old machine so things out of sight could be worn. Can't fully recall but I think I removed the saw table to access everything.

http://lurem.gandi.ws/vues-eclatees

open the c210b pdf and on the exploded drawing the small wheel is no 15, the autofeed drive wheel is no 53 and the clutch lever is 51

these may help as well

http://pluspourlebois.free.fr/Les%20fou ... bLurem.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Wqc8n1TdUw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W2RKzQJwPo

hope I've been of assistance

 

[jimmer]

aha! yes, thanks katellwood, i had clocked this roller this morning and how it functions. there is still rubber on the wheel but could well be that it's getting perished and starting to slip. in fact the intermittent stop start character of the feed would fit with this.

all that stuff need lubricating, but it's sucha pain to get to! i leave the side panel off the machine to make belt change easier, but did you ever manage to get the saw table top off? i haven't so far managed to find all the bolts holding it down.