Plane - Sole Contact Points

[paulrbarnard]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but you seem to suggest otherwise by seemingly disregarding any talk of straight shavings! (call'em what you like) ...
i.e, ones which are evident that the cap iron was involved, and not charmed by Shapton's outta
the plane.

As said Rob's somewhat disregardful of the use of the cap iron, not honing his to become more involved...when the going gets tough.
Setting it roughly a bit over 1/32" which might? just about work with thick shavings (on pleasant timbers) if honed at 50.

He doesn't hide that, but has a glut of videos to make things difficult to find,
so you won't see too many times it fails, or the fact he's constantly relying on the edge.

A different story, say if you're working even for 10 mins with a plane, on something not so pleasant
to work without using it.

View attachment 160170
Tom

And there you go jumping to arrogant religious fanatic assumptions. I’ve never posted anything about shaving shapes, curly or flat. I’m not going to post photos of the angles and positions of the cap irons on my planes because I have a life, but if I did you would see them honed and set as you describe. Not because it’s what you or any other fanatic is pushing, it’s because it was taught to me 50 years ago when I started using planes by my grandfather who was a lifelong carpenter and joiner, who probably learned it from his father who was also a lifelong carpenter and joiner. Using a cap iron has been about for generations why else is it there? FWIW all my woodworking (except construction work) has been completely dimensioned by hand. I don’t own a table saw or planer or thicknesses. I’ve spent a lot of time with handplanes and rough sawn timber.

My comment was railing about the exact response you have just made. Frankly I couldn’t give a toss what sort of shavings you make and I wouldn’t dream of telling you mine are right and yours are wrong.

I suggest you read your responses to this thread and reflect on the point I was actually making about self appointed gurus and how it applies to yourself.

 

[paulrbarnard]

It's curious how you ascribe David W as a "guru", but give a Cosman and Sellers a pass.

Sellers I definitely consider a self appointed guru. I thought that was clear from the “my way or the highway” comment. He does however share a wide range of skills and demonstrates it and doesn’t feel the need to push his view in public fora. It’s easy to fast forward past the noise in his online content.
Cosman has never come across as saying this is the only way to do it. He doesn’t say you’re doing it wrong do it like this. For sure he demonstrates his method, which work for him, and has demonstrated some good skills through his career. It’s his sales focus that winds me up
DW I don’t give a pass as he ALWAYS comes across as a single focus one trick pony who disparages anyone who might dein to offer an alternative view point. From my experience what he preaches is good but he certainly didn’t invent it and if others want to do something else he shouldn’t need to feel he has to bury them in pages and pages of argumentative posts.
Unfortunately it looks like religious fervour is a contagious affliction.

 

[Ttrees]

Just stating facts there, if you aren't noting the shavings being infulenced,
then the cap iron's not working.
Simple as that, and nothing to do with self appointed guru-ism.
I'm just stating the obvious, as lots of folks suggest, or make out to suggest otherwise.
That doesn't help folks.

 

[Jacob]

I've yet to see any criticism for using a cap iron.

Nobody criticised using a cap iron until the new boys came a long with the retro heavy single irons and brass knobs.
Everybody knew about adjusting the cap iron before that, it just happened that some people think they'd discovered it for the first time!
By the way the magic angle is 49.5º and I claim my five pounds.

 

[Ttrees]

By the way the magic angle is 49.5º and I claim my five pounds.

Really?........
I thought you'd like more camber than below !
The cap is a bit close, is it not?

 

[raffo]

DW I don’t give a pass as he ALWAYS comes across as a single focus one trick pony who disparages anyone who might dein to offer an alternative view point. From my experience what he preaches is good but he certainly didn’t invent it and if others want to do something else he shouldn’t need to feel he has to bury them in pages and pages of argumentative posts.

That's one of David's traits. He can be single minded, so what?

I've seen many interactions where he's tangled with people that disparage or ridicule him, e.g. Jacob. Others try to refute him with "go and see how Sellers or Rex Krugger does it", name dropping, or argument from authority nonsense. Who wouldn't grow tired of those kind of arguments and disparage them?
Try one day to tell him "you're full of sh*t and here's why" and see what kind of response you will get.

 

[worn thumbs]

Its amazing that we ever managed to make anything before the days of internet gurus.I have better things to do than watching tools being sharpened but I suppose the old saw about the one eyed man being king in the land of the blind might apply.

 

[Jacob]

...

I've seen many interactions where he's tangled with people that disparage or ridicule him, e.g. Jacob.

Only in self defence! He was very belligerent and I had him on "ignore" most of the time.

Others try to refute him with "go and see how Sellers or Rex Krugger does it", name dropping, or argument from authority nonsense. Who wouldn't grow tired of those kind of arguments and disparage them?
Try one day to tell him "you're full of sh*t and here's why" and see what kind of response you will get.

I thought you disapproved of ad hominem arguments Raffo, but here you are at it hammer and tongs!

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Is that a hint of tearout I see between the knot and the edge of the blade in your image, along with a few track marks? I'm wondering if there might be a nick in the iron, a trapped shaving, or an edge is digging in, and it looks like you'll either need to adjust the cap iron a bit, or maybe resort to sanding and/or scraping plus sanding.

I'm only twisting your tail a bit and have no plans to get involved in the debate. I just enjoy watching all these heated threads that concern themselves with esoteric wood working minutiae because no-one ever convinces anyone to change their entrenched (ingrained?) position, but the figurative frothing at the mouth and the spitting of feathers amuses me.

Anyway, I've said my little piece and I'm returning to my observation only role, ha, ha. Slainte.

​

 

[Ttrees]

Indeed it is, and it needed a lick with the smoother at that setting shown to achieve the result above.
A good example of the cap iron half working is what you mention, as that panel plane was set not beyond 1/32", and honed close to wot Jacob's mentioned.
It's clearly not cutting the mustard there.....

This is where someone comes in and suggests honing the cap steeper for the panel plane,
but as of yet, nobody's experimented with that and willing to give their 2 cents.
My Guru train stops here, and leaving the query for those who've been taught all this 50 years ago.
If Warren frequented here, I'd know what answer he'd suggest, which is what I'd guess might be
more apt for most here, but he's probably away in the Delorean again.

I would speculate we're at least all agreed by now, we can see a cap iron being involved when it is,
and when it isn't, kinda hard to ignore that...
and if one cannot see something along the lines of above, then that means one is specifically showing off their sharpening job instead...

Unless those folks are still under the impression that the cap iron works,
even if the plane isn't setup to make shavings something close to what's shown.

All the best
Tom

 

[Jacob]

Indeed it is, and it needed a lick with the smoother at that setting shown to achieve the result above.
A good example of the cap iron half working is what you mention, as that panel plane was set not beyond 1/32",

No it isn't. It's set at slightly more than 1/16". Have a look at the scale!

and honed close to wot Jacob's mentioned.
It's clearly not cutting the mustard there.....

Don't blame me! You can see at a glance that that plane is obviously as blunt as **** ery! I would have sharpened it immediately. No wonder you are struggling . That cap iron setting might be OK for fast removal of softwood.

......

I would speculate we're at least all agreed by now,

Not me squire! I'm not even sure what you are talking about at all.

 

[Ttrees]

Not blunt as the shavings shown suggest, but perhaps not Cosman sharp either.
I could mention that smoother will still work for that kinda thing, even when blunted though.
Not that sharpening is a bad thing, it's just in the real world, relying on it alone for planing something close to the line can be a gamble.

There's no gamble with my smoother.
If there was, simple to deal with, i.e ensure more influence of the cap iron in the cut, which for that profile camber means only one thing.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Not blunt as the shavings shown suggest, but perhaps not Cosman sharp either.

Not Jacob sharp either! You can see light glittering on the blunt edge

I could mention that smoother will still work for that kinda thing, even when blunted though.
Not that sharpening is a bad thing, it's just in the real world, relying on it alone for planing something close to the line can be a gamble.

You mean you don't believe in sharpening?
You've lost me altogether.

 

[Ttrees]

Looking back, there was infact a nick or two in that iron OMG!

 

[John Brown]

I tend to nick myself when shaving under the influence.

 

[Ttrees]

I thought y'all had beards and Lie-Nielsen's?

 

[Jacob]

View attachment 160188
Looking back, there was infact a nick or two in that iron OMG!

Congratulations - I see you are looking at the finished surface !! instead of trying to divine things from the shavings!
You need to look closer at your plane blade too as it is obviously blunt right across from one side to the other.

 

[Glenhyrst]

David, Paul and Rob I can identify but the other David is who? DW? Who he/they?

 

[paulrbarnard]

David, Paul and Rob I can identify but the other David is who? DW? Who he/they?

David Weaver, @D_W is a member here who published some good research on cap iron/ chip breaker use.
WoodCentral Forum Archive

Unfortunately as you can probably deduce from this thread he is somewhat abrasive and dogmatic in the defence of “his” technique to the exclusion of all others. He also has a tendency to use ten words where one would have been sufficient.

The combination of @D_W and @Jacob is a master class in people incapable of seeing the other side of an argument

 

[Adam W.]

An enthusiast.