Plane - Sole Contact Points

[tibi]

Well, I can’t justify or afford fancy new planes, so I refurb car boot sale Stanleys and Records and they seem fine to me.

I was always sceptical about Charlesworth’s methods, partly because Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman both seem to be advocates of not being keen on a close chip breaker, and whenever I’ve tried it in the past I’ve just achieved a lot of clogging. But recently I’ve been unhappy with my surface finish, having made a couple of moulding planes and got a small amount of tearout due to reversing grain.

So this morning I did exactly what Charlesworth recommended, 1.5 deg on the contact surface of the chip breaker and 45 deg grind on the edge facing the shaving. I have to say I was stunned at the result. It didn’t come immediately, I had to lap the contact edge to stop it clogging still.

Here‘s a piece of Wickes construction pine that my usual setup would have torn to pieces (and did before I got it right). Gliding over reversing grain and knots. And lovely full width shavings too (not that it matters).

Great advice for a relative beginner like me. I shall be doing this with all my metal planes. (Edit - yes there are a few track marks but that’s a different problem)

View attachment 160122

Welcome to the underground community of woodworkers, who can actually use the cap iron to get a great finish. No high-angle frogs, closed mouths and 300 000 grit honing fluids are required Beware: This community gets ridiculed, well .... from all other woodworkers.

 

[Jacob]

The sooner you leave behind Sellers and Cosman's marketing schemes the more you will advance in your woodworking skills. Refurbishing an old Stanley plane takes very little effort and setting up the chipbreaker is not that difficult, but fundamental as you just realized. The frequently parroted nonsense "I'm too busy woodworking to learn how to setup my tools" is tiresome.

I had a look at Sellers' vid
Flipped through it - 1 hour is too long!
I thought everything he said was very practical and pretty much what everybody does, and good advice for a beginner.
He's very different from Cosman or Charlesworth in that he doesn't act as though he's found magic solutions previously unknown to humankind - he just does a normal job as most of us would.
I've done much the same (with variations) fairly often.
The basic guru trick is to persuade people that things are difficult in the first place, and that they have the solution. e.g. to insist that a particular angle is essential - which may well solve a problem, but in fact random variations either way would also work, depending on the condition of the kit and the work being done.
In general they make things more difficult than they need to be.

 

[raffo]

To clean the rust off a plane everybody can agree on, he falls short where setting the plane up is concerned. He dismisses the chipbreaker as an important component of the plane in one of his videos. His audience is the novice woodworker. As I said, the sooner you move on, the better you will be.

 

[Jacob]

.... His audience is the novice woodworker.

Of course it is. Exactly the same as Cosman's and Charlesworth's!

As I said, the sooner you move on, the better you will be.

Moved on well before I had heard or read anything from any of this lot!
I did get infected by the crazy sharpening tendency, but briefly, and I managed to get back to sanity in the end! Some never escape!

 

[Ttrees]

I was always sceptical about Charlesworth’s methods, partly because Paul Sellers and Rob Cosman both seem to be advocates of not being keen on a close chip breaker,

View attachment 160122

I'm seeing a good sharpening job, and no cap iron involvement.
When the going gets tough, and you still wish to use a plane for the job,
you'll have to follow the other David's advice, on the setup of the plane, and not David Charlesworth's.

Not saying not to watch St. Charlesworth's stuff, he's made the best videos out there on basic accurate planing methodology with no bad habits.
Lots of reasons there to explain why it's leaps and bounds better than anything else you'd find,
but you won't find use of the cap iron included.

You will find "type 2 shavings" which are strictly for the most dense timbers on earth, with the highest specific gravity and janka figures known to man,
but for anything even slightly under that, the cap iron will be far more useful as one doesn't need to restrict themselves to take such thin shavings, and can rely on the cap iron, due to the fact the edge won't be getting battered.


This is a perfect example of the usual "I've tried it already"
which paired with the "I told you so" impression folks have from DW's postings or videos.
Regardless of the matter of being nice or not about it,
the suggestion to actually use it, is taken as an insult.

All the best
Tom

 

[Adam W.]

He's just parroting information that is readily available elsewhere and that has been available for a very long time. There's nothing new or revolutionary in his dogma, except a poor delivery style and lots of fannying about in order to look clever.

 

[paulrbarnard]

He's just parroting information that is readily available elsewhere and that has been available for a very long time. There's nothing new or revolutionary in his dogma, except a poor delivery style and lots of fannying about in order to look clever.

The main problem I have with it is how dogmatic the dogma is

 

[Jacob]

He's just parroting information that is readily available elsewhere and that has been available for a very long time.

Thats how it is when explaining stuff to beginners! It's what all teachers do.

There's nothing new or revolutionary in his dogma, except a poor delivery style and lots of fannying about in order to look clever.

Which of our three wise monkeys are you referring to?

 

[Ttrees]

The main problem I have with it is how dogmatic the dogma is

That seems to be the reason most folks here don't want to try and actually make use of the cap iron.

The gurus have plenty of excuses, well Cosman anyway, which is somewhat understandable to those who make use of it, (not needing Shapton's, nor other costly things) but it's bizarre to say the least.
It's certainly not on par with the rest of the skills Rob's demonstrated.

 

[thetyreman]

The sooner you leave behind Sellers and Cosman's marketing schemes the more you will advance in your woodworking skills. Refurbishing an old Stanley plane takes very little effort and setting up the chipbreaker is not that difficult, but fundamental as you just realized. The frequently parroted nonsense "I'm too busy woodworking to learn how to setup my tools" is tiresome.

I tell you what else is tiresome 'get your cap iron to 50 degrees or you're not good enough' repeated about 5-10 times a day on here, repeating it thousands of times does not mean it's the best way to do something, it's almost like a cap iron cult where anyone who doesn't sharpen it to exactly 50 degrees is a heathen and should be burnt at the steak!

 

[raffo]

Right, everybody knew how to deal with tear out using the chipbreaker, David read it somewhere and he's parroting it. David can be harsh, but so what, grow a pair and push back. All these ad hominem has been going on for a while, it doesn't look good.

 

[raffo]

I tell you what else is tiresome 'get your cap iron to 50 degrees or you're not good enough' repeated about 5-10 times a day on here, repeating it thousands of times does not mean it's the best way to do something, it's almost like a cap iron cult where anyone who doesn't sharpen it to exactly 50 degrees is a heathen and should be burnt at the steak!

For the love of the flying spaghetti monster!!! where on earth have you heard or read that you HAVE to use that angle and nothing else. This is at least the third time I'm telling you that is not the case, take a look at the article and make up your mind.
It seems you are pretty invested in refuting a "dogma" that doesn't exist.

 

[Jacob]

Right, everybody knew how to deal with tear out using the chipbreaker, David read it somewhere and he's parroting it. David can be harsh, but so what, grow a pair and push back. All these ad hominem has been going on for a while,

They are not ad hominem - they are criticisms of some peoples' ideas, not of the people themselves.

 

[Ttrees]

I've yet to see any criticism for using a cap iron.

 

[paulrbarnard]

That seems to be the reason most folks here don't want to try and actually make use of the cap iron.

The gurus have plenty of excuses, well Cosman anyway, which is somewhat understandable to those who make use of it, (not needing Shapton's, nor other costly things) but it's bizarre to say the least.
It's certainly not on par with the rest of the skills Rob's demonstrated.

There is a natural resistance to swallowing when something is being shoved down your throat.

It self appointed experts who have tunnel vision that wind me up.

In full disclosure DW was the first person I put on ignore in this forum, that despite the fact that I have made full use of the cap iron since my grandfather showed me how to set up a plane 50 years ago.

I’m not a lover of self appointed gurus of any persuasion/religion. Rob Cosman’s focus on sales grates but I’ve spent time with him and have a lot of respect for his skills, which were acquired over a long time actually using hand tools. Paul Sellars I find way too “my way or the highway” but again appreciate the skills he has built and shares. Even David Charlesworth came over a bit high handed at times.

Fundamentally there is more than one way to skin a cat and people on both sides of an argument should have enough confidence in their view not to need to attack the contrary view.

 

[thetyreman]

Right, everybody knew how to deal with tear out using the chipbreaker, David read it somewhere and he's parroting it. David can be harsh, but so what, grow a pair and push back. All these ad hominem has been going on for a while, it doesn't look good.

I've never had a problem with setting the cap iron angle at 45 degrees instead of 50, and will continue to do so without being bullied or patronised for it.

 

[Ttrees]

In full disclosure DW was the first person I put on ignore in this forum, that despite the fact that I have made full use of the cap iron since my grandfather showed me how to set up a plane 50 years ago.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but you seem to suggest otherwise by seemingly disregarding any talk of straight shavings! (call'em what you like) ...
i.e, ones which are evident that the cap iron was involved, and not charmed by Shapton's outta
the plane.

As said Rob's somewhat disregardful of the use of the cap iron, not honing his to become more involved...when the going gets tough.
Setting it roughly a bit over 1/32" which might? just about work with thick shavings (on pleasant timbers) if honed at 50.

He doesn't hide that, but has a glut of videos to make things difficult to find,
so you won't see too many times it fails, or the fact he's constantly relying on the edge.

A different story, say if you're working even for 10 mins with a plane, on something not so pleasant
to work without using it.

Tom

 

[raffo]

When I started using hand planes a few years ago I asked on an US forum how to deal with tear out. The answers I got were all over the place: back bevels, BU planes, card scrapers, sandpaper, infill planes, tight mouths, heavy planes. On one mentioned the chip breaker. If you ask a similar question today, you'll still get similar answers.
As of just a few months ago, someone who has manufactured planes in the past claimed to me that chipbreakers are not necessary for smoothing.

You're fortunate someone taught you how to use a plane, no such luck for me. After some time I stumbled upon an article by Steve Voight, The Double Iron, Part 1, which led me to the Woodcentral forum and a debate about the chipbreaker that happened there in 2012. It's there where David posted his article. The article is still there.

It's curious how you ascribe David W as a "guru", but give a Cosman and Sellers a pass.

This, from someone with a big audience, is a disservice to the craft. .

 

[tibi]

This thread is entitled to some music. And it can be used in any sharpening thread, too. Forum woodworker's anthem:

 

[Blackswanwood]

Fundamentally there is more than one way to skin a cat and people on both sides of an argument should have enough confidence in their view not to need to attack the contrary view.

Well said Paul. I sometimes wonder if certain members are missing something in their lives as the need for their opinion to be the only one which is right seems to consume them.

Still we’ve evolved from discussing shavings to discussing what gurus have said about shavings