Pine v Redwood...does it matter?

[Phil63]

Hi guys, I've decided to give toy making a go so I've tidied up the garage, dusted off my tools and brought myself a wooden toys book by American woodworker. I'm almost set to go but I'm struggling to understand what wood to use for the toys. The book recommends Pine, but when I called my local lumber yard they said they have redwood which is the same thing. Can anyone advise if this would be a good option for toys, or even recommend something else before I make the plunge?

Thanks for listening.

Phil

 

[thetyreman]

redwood pine is just a species of pine, yes it's ok for toys, but beech would be a much better choice, the problem with redwood pine is the knots and finding boards with no knots has become a lot more challenging since covid, the quality has gone downhill whilst the price has tripled.

 

[Jacob]

"Redwood" in the UK is common name for the timber from scots pine. Imported mainly from Sweden and Russia.
Not to be confused with american redwood which is a different species altogether.
It's widely available and well graded so you know roughly what you are getting. Price may have gone up but quality is dead consistent - they have a grading system- you get what you ask for.
Suitability? What exactly are you making?
These 4" balls are redwood, it's my favourite stuff!

 

[Phil63]

redwood pine is just a species of pine, yes it's ok for toys, but beech would be a much better choice, the problem with redwood pine is the knots and finding boards with no knots has become a lot more challenging since covid, the quality has gone downhill whilst the price has tripled.

"Redwood" in the UK is common name for the timber from scots pine. Imported mainly from Sweden and Russia.
Not to be confused with american redwood which is a different species altogether.
It's widely available and well graded so you know roughly what you are getting. Price may have gone up but quality is dead consistent - they have a grading system- you get what you ask for.
Suitability? What exactly are you making?
These 4" balls are redwood, it's my favourite stuff!

View attachment 124072

Oh wow, they look great. I'm sure these toys would look great in that. I haven't decided what I'm going to make first but it's a toss up between a car or a plane. Thanks for the pic

 

[Phil63]

redwood pine is just a species of pine, yes it's ok for toys, but beech would be a much better choice, the problem with redwood pine is the knots and finding boards with no knots has become a lot more challenging since covid, the quality has gone downhill whilst the price has tripled.

Thanks for the reply. I do actually have some beech but I thought it might be easier to use a softwood rather than use beech. Plus it's more difficult to get hold of so I order it off the internet with a £20 delivery fee. I thought if I could just use this Redwood it might be easier and save me some pennies!

 

[thetyreman]

yes the grading system, I can't find a good source of it though in greater manchester area, the supplier I go to have really gone downhill combined with them not letting you self select anymore because of covid restrictions, oh and did I mention they tripled the price? as well as having to wait sometimes as long as 30-40 minutes for something that used to take about 5 minutes maybe 10.

 

[Jameshow]

"Redwood" in the UK is common name for the timber from scots pine. Imported mainly from Sweden and Russia.
Not to be confused with american redwood which is a different species altogether.
It's widely available and well graded so you know roughly what you are getting. Price may have gone up but quality is dead consistent - they have a grading system- you get what you ask for.
Suitability? What exactly are you making?
These 4" balls are redwood, it's my favourite stuff!

View attachment 124072

So which are the balls russian redwood or USA? No wanting to start a cold war!!

Cheers James

 

[johnnyb]

redwood or red deal is lovely for toys and smells divine. whitewood could also be used and is very common in b and q. beech is nice but probably a faff to get and needs planing by the time a merchants done they will have doubled the price. I can sell some planed beech as I've got a glut atm

 

[D_W]

Thanks for the reply. I do actually have some beech but I thought it might be easier to use a softwood rather than use beech

There were two toy carvers in my mother's craft circuit (local people who do all of the craft shows within an hour's drive). They're both dead now, but both used pine, and upcharged (at the time) for walnut (which is not nearly as cheap or common as it used to be).

Knot free pine here isn't difficult to get, but it'll be a select grade. Those guys used white pine and not something with hard rings (some of the pines or spruces will have very hard rings and soft between them - especially if the wood is older).

One of them developed a sensitivity to pine and from then on, all of his toys were walnut.

(but you're working for pleasure and not counting time I'm assuming, so you could do worse than beech - like black palm comes to mind as something that would be horrid for making toys).

 

[Phil63]

There were two toy carvers in my mother's craft circuit (local people who do all of the craft shows within an hour's drive). They're both dead now, but both used pine, and upcharged (at the time) for walnut (which is not nearly as cheap or common as it used to be).

Knot free pine here isn't difficult to get, but it'll be a select grade. Those guys used white pine and not something with hard rings (some of the pines or spruces will have very hard rings and soft between them - especially if the wood is older).

One of them developed a sensitivity to pine and from then on, all of his toys were walnut.

(but you're working for pleasure and not counting time I'm assuming, so you could do worse than beech - like black palm comes to mind as something that would be horrid for making toys).

I've heard of that before, it was called clear pine, presumably because it was clear of defects. I'm just not sure where to get hold of it. I have done beech to get me going and I might grab some redwood to see how I get on. I guess it's just trial and error to see what works as well as getting what's available.
The main reason I wanted to use something other than the beach that I have is because some designs call for 3/4 inch patterns to be cut on a scroll saw. I think a nice softwood would make this a much easier task.

 

[D_W]

Things are a lot different now than they were 35-40 years ago when I was little and in tow, but those guys would've used scroll saws and such (in my rural area, the incidence of some guy with a 1500SF shop was small, and certainly not in the circles that worked craft shows - those guys were looking to make money, not spend it).

I just looked at some literature here and on an old price list, clear pine is shown as "Clear pine (white)" next to "knotty pine (white)". There's no price.

I just went to the website of the same dealer and they're still in business, but now their softwood is second growth california redwood.

So aside from tracking down an amish sawmiller, good clear white pine with straight grain is probably not easy to find.

The clear pine sold in the stores here is radiata pine.

selected light colored poplar or american sycamore may also be nice (but sycamore is starting to get on the harder side). But even that (sycamore) is generally just flooring wood here.

I guess some of this is a shame as clear quartered white pine is just wonderful stuff and would make *Fine* looking toys. (I snapped this from the outside of one of my chisel wall racks- close enough to keep the knots out of the picture!!).

IT looks like spruce but the rings aren't hard, so it can be worked cleanly.

(the wood above literally came from one piece stair treads at lowes - $10 each with the pith down the center and the sides quartered. I think they lost their mind for a second and I never saw them there again).

nearly forgot - if you're in england, you're near water (relatively). Boat supply places with "vertical grain softwood for decking or cladding" may be an option. Not sure if they'd do pine or redwood, but they might have light weight mahogany would would also be a nice working choice. It works like butter when it's not dense and seems indifferent to poor technique with power tools, which is usually an indicator that it'll work superbly by hand - you can just cut without fear of big splitouts.

 

[bp122]

As said above, beech is a good option. But if you plan to paint your toys, then Poplar (tulipwood) is also a good choice. It is sometimes cheaper, is a hardwood, machines really well, easy on the tools, not the most aesthetic generally but if you are painting it, it doesn't matter.

As per redwood, usually the joinery grade redwood is very good aesthetically but not as good (a lot fewer knots and blemishes) as some of the rarer imported species like southern yellow pine.

 

[Jacob]

Possibly over thinking it - in fact you can make toys and other things from any old wood.
If from the shelves of B&Q, or found in a skip, then so be it, just get stuck in!

 

[Adam W.]

Snip/ redwood or red deal is lovely for toys and smells divine. /snip

And there you have it...

**Anorak alert**

Red deal , scots pine from Scandinavia and the Baltic with a red colour

Yellow deal, as above, but yellow in colour. Baltic grown scots pine has a wide bright yellow sapwood band. Often gets confused with pitch pine.

White deal, spruce.

All these names originate from the timber trade in the 18th. century when the import of timber into the port of London increased dramatically after the great fire. Deals are imported sawn sections as opposed to raw round timber, hewn baulks or masts which came from ports like Riga, but I've yet to find an exact measurement. There are descriptions of deals and battens, so deals may have been for re-sawing at a local yard after import.

 

[Jacob]

Talking balls (as ever); two of mine were from a different part of the scrap heap and were finer grained. Maybe from older timber presumably imported from further north; "Kara Sea" pine or some such?
The others were all from the same batch of recent Swedish 'unsorted'.

 

[Jameshow]

And there you have it...

**Anorak alert**

Red deal , scots pine from Scandinavia and the Baltic with a red colour

Yellow deal, as above, but yellow in colour. Baltic grown scots pine has a wide bright yellow sapwood band. Often gets confused with pitch pine.

White deal, spruce.

All these names originate from the timber trade in the 18th. century when the import of timber into the port of London increased dramatically after the great fire. Deals are imported sawn sections as opposed to raw round timber, hewn baulks or masts which came from ports like Riga, but I've yet to find an exact measurement. There are descriptions of deals and battens, so deals may have been for re-sawing at a local yard after import.

We could do with a good primer on softwoods and hardwoods!

Cheers James

 

[Jacob]

We could do with a good primer on softwoods and hardwoods!

Cheers James

Softwood is very unfashionable. "Serious" woodworkers turn their noses up at it - more fool them!
The TRADA guide is good TRADA guide to softwoods - Google Search

 

[johnnyb]

softwood is not quite as variable as hardwood in its properties. but it can be extremely durable( pitch pine, cedar ,accoya( basically treated radiata pine)) extremely stable( quebec yellow pine)
easy to get(white deal and red deal) hard( southern yellow pine) beautiful and hard( yew) others are available
many joiners sneer at making exterior stuff from anything but accoya btw I do follow why....but the cost

 

[Richard_C]

My local builders merchant/timber supplier has 2 grades, premium and standard, 2 sets of racking so its all dead clear and easy to find, most sizes available in both. There is a significant price difference and I don't use much. but in simple terms if it will be visible I get premium and if it's for framing or whatever I get the standard.

(is it just me, or do others take pleasure in standing among racks of softwood and enjoying the smell?)

I recently had some 35 year old patio doors replaced with fancy sliding ones and the fitters were happy to leave the old softwood door frames behind - I'm recovering the useable bits for yet unspecified jobs. One thing I noticed on cutting through is that the rings seem so much tighter on the old stuff - much slower grown back then. Some of the old doors were starting to 'go' but the frames are as sound as the day they were fitted so softwood can last.

If I were to make toys I would think about who they were for. Beech, yes if it's to last a lifetime, be passed down generations, be a thing of great wonder and take ages to make. If its a cheery simple throw away in a couple of years item then redwood or similar. Beech is one of the most dense of the common hardwoods, up there with white oak, and half as dense again as redwood. Toys will be heavier. A small toy for a very young child might be better in redwood, a ride-on or push along maybe better in beech.

You might be able to use leftovers or reclaimed wood but steer clear of things like pallett wood which will likely have unknown preservatives in it - assume children's toys will be slobbered on, licked and chewed.

 

[Richard_C]

We could do with a good primer on softwoods and hardwoods!

I use Bedec if its going to be painted ...or is than not what you meant?

(sorry )