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A good point Jacob.
Yes, perfectly possible to run ICE directly on hydrogen, similar to an LPG set up in basic layout, although at much greater pressures up to the evaporator. But still produces harmful emissions, because air is largely nitrogen which is burnt in the process and produces NOx. This is one of the problems to be overcome in using hydrogen to directly fuel jets for long haul flight.
A fuel cell powered electric vehicle doesn't produce any harmful emissions, only pure water.
All my references to hydrogen powered vehicles are assuming the use of a fuel cell and electric motors.
 
I agree, to an extent. I am quite sure we should be making more use of the railways. But given the long term degredation of the rail network, and the fact that so much of our logistics are now based on road haulage I'm not sure how it would work.
The biggest issue for me is that, as Jacob quite rightly keeps reminding us, time is not on our side.
We need to make some decisions and get our finger out implementing them.
 
The Prolongation of Parliament act passed in 1940 was a response to an immediate, real threat with a high level of political and public support for actions which could win the war. The invasion of Poland and France, and the prospect of Dunkirk and the Blitz would be mighty motivators!

I doubt the same level of support would be forthcoming based on the threat of climate change.

Even were political agreement forthcoming, society has radically changed since 1940 with much less respect for established authority. Suspending democracy would be perceived as a real threat to personal freedom - in 1940 it would have been a real threat to public and nation..

Suspension of parliament to meet a climate threat could create a very high risk of public unrest at a level far exceeding (for instance) the poll tax riots.

Using force to suppress unrest would reduce the UK to a single party police state using force to implement policy where possible. Putin would look on in admiration. A complete non-starter.
It's up to our leaders, in Parliament and elsewhere, to argue the case and convince the nation of the need.
It's a pity we don't have any parliamentarians with leadership skills at the moment. Even George Galloway would be a relief from the current tedium.
 
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.......

Deploying resources to insulate houses better, ......
Been looking to move. Not interested in modern boxes but more 'interesting' properties. Looked at a lot on the web. The one thing that they nearly all have in common is that the EPC rating is low E or more often F. Digging deeper and looking at the suggestions given on the EPC rating involve an outlay of around £35-45,000 (figures are available) giving a payback period of around 25 years. We don't have that sort of money to throw around and I suspect very few others.

Now apply that finding to the rest of the country.
 
Been looking to move. Not interested in modern boxes but more 'interesting' properties. Looked at a lot on the web. The one thing that they nearly all have in common is that the EPC rating is low E or more often F. Digging deeper and looking at the suggestions given on the EPC rating involve an outlay of around £35-45,000 (figures are available) giving a payback period of around 25 years. We don't have that sort of money to throw around and I suspect very few others.

Now apply that finding to the rest of the country.
The most effective way is internal insulation meaning 100mm or so on inside of all external walls and more in roof spaces. If you can tolerate the loss of floor space and if major internal redesign necessary anyway, then it wouldn't cost anything like £35000.
We got our chapel conversion to a C rating this way. 3000 sq ft floor area. It needed stripping to a shell anyway so the insulation changes were not in themselves disruptive but just an additional cost.
The problem with most buildings is having to destroy existing improvements and devalue the property. The answer could be to start with a cheap but derelict shell?
 
From what little I've read a charge/refill time of minutes rather than hours would be a good reason.
Why? I read a little while ago that 93% of UK EV drivers recharge over night (at below half the cost per mile of petrol)

EV batteries are still in the relatively early days of development and there has been suggestions that including capacitors in the battery could reduce charging times to just a couple of minutes.

They take BEV’s very seriously in China and their rapid chargers are already pretty quick.

IMG_1252.jpeg
 
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Been looking to move. Not interested in modern boxes but more 'interesting' properties. Looked at a lot on the web. The one thing that they nearly all have in common is that the EPC rating is low E or more often F. Digging deeper and looking at the suggestions given on the EPC rating involve an outlay of around £35-45,000 (figures are available) giving a payback period of around 25 years. We don't have that sort of money to throw around and I suspect very few others.

Now apply that finding to the rest of the country.
Fully understand the point - also appreciate the attractiveness of "period" rather than modern boxes. Having moved recently I made the very explicit choice to go for lower maintenance rather than charm.

Apparently ~15% of UK housing stock was built before 1920 and would probably have solid walls.

In terms of how to respond to climate change there is a reality that what works for most does not work for all. There is a choice to be made - go modern, insulate at significant expense, or high heating bills.
 
With regard to the chicken and egg situation this is perhaps where government needs to step in and give things a nudge. Spain for example are investing €800 million in green hydrogen generation. As it stands I can't see any option but hydrogen for long haul road transport, air travel etc. if we will need to build the infrastructure to support this then just seems daft to build a whole separate system for battery EV.
It's important to understand that there is a difference between what is technically and practically possible and what is economically feasible.

It's very difficult to find objective information about hydrogen because almost all available information comes sources which have vested interests, and rather too many so called 'climate activists' (anarchists), exhibit an almost religious fervour that whatever it takes must be done instantly and we must 'suffer for our sins' (despite the fact that they conduct their lives in a similar manner to everyone else).

As with so many emotive topics, rational' objective debate is next to impossible.

For a long time to come, the UK will continue to depend on oil, gas and to a small extent coal. By the new government restricting extraction in the UK (with the very best of intentions), much of it will continue to be imported, increasing the UK's fuel insecurity and energy costs. That's not a political statement, just a fact of life.

Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical structure in the universe but unlike fossil fuels such as coal, methane gas and oil, it does not exist as a primary fuel source - it has to be extracted from primary fuel feedstocks. Whichever process is used, it is costly, takes a lot of energy to extract hydrogen, and most process involve the release of carbon, which needs to be captured and stored. Only the electrolysis of water into hydrogen and oxygen uses a renewable feedstock, but again, the process takes a lot of electricity which - to be 'green' - needs to be from renewable sources (wind and solar). Solar electricity is of course only available during daylight hours, so any hydrogen generated during daylight hours will need to be stored. The cost of the electricity needs to be factored into the price of hydrogen, and the 'opportunity cost' is that if used to generate hydrogen, that electricity cannot be used as a primary source of energy for heat, light, or power. Thus hydrogen will never be cheaper than electricity.

If it's ever produced on a grand scale, who knows what it might do to the rain cycle? In nature, water in the oceans and earth's surface evaporates, forms clouds, and falls as rain or snow, often in the wrong places, sometimes causing floods or droughts. If ever hydrogen from electrolysis of water is adopted on a huge scale (big 'if') vast quantities of 'man made' water vapour will be released into the atmosphere, then what? Just a passing thought.

When you hear of buses, cars, central heating boilers running on hydrogen, the focus is always on the undoubted environmental benefit at the point of use. A bus or car in the centre of a city only emits water vapour. However, the hydrogen won't be 'green' as only 4% of the world's current production of hydrogen is 'green'. There are four main sources for the commercial production of hydrogen: natural gas, oil, coal, and electrolysis; which account for 48%, 30%, 18% and 4% of the world's hydrogen production respectively. Fossil fuels are the dominant source of industrial hydrogen. Hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of natural gas. One ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO2, a greenhouse gas that may be captured.

So when you see a hydrogen bus, car or central heating boiler, the harmful emissions occur at the reforming plant - not the car's tailpipe, and the hydrogen comes from non-renewable sources. It makes little economic sense and even less environmental sense, to use electricity to convert methane (CH4) into carbon dioxide and hydrogen, with all the costs that entails, to power hydrogen central heating boilers, when the methane (natural gas), could - as it is now - be burnt directly in gas central heating boilers.

This is often referred to as 'grey' hydrogen, when emissions are released to the atmosphere, and 'blue' when emissions are captured through carbon capture and storage (CCS) Blue hydrogen has been estimated to have a carbon footprint 20% greater than burning gas or coal for heat and 60% greater when compared to burning diesel for heat.

Words such as' green' hydrogen, 'blue' hydrogen are bandied about without most of us knowing what they actually mean, so it might be worth a mention:

Black, brown and grey hydrogen:

Grey hydrogen is the most common form and is generated from natural gas, or methane, through a process called “steam reforming”.
This process generates just a smaller amount of emissions than black or brown hydrogen, which uses black (bituminous) or brown (lignite) coal in the hydrogen-making process. Black or brown hydrogen is the most environmentally damaging as both the CO2 and carbon monoxide generated during the process are not recaptured.

Blue hydrogen

Hydrogen is labelled blue whenever the carbon generated from steam reforming is captured and stored underground through industrial carbon capture and storage (CSS). Blue hydrogen is, therefore, sometimes referred to as carbon neutral as the emissions are not dispersed in the atmosphere.
However, some argue that “low carbon” would be a more accurate description, as 10-20% of the generated carbon cannot be captured.

Green hydrogen

Green hydrogen – also referred to as “clean hydrogen” – is produced by using clean energy from renewable energy sources, such as solar or wind power, to split water into two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom through a process called electrolysis. Renewables cannot always generate energy at all hours of the day and green hydrogen production could help use the excess generated during peak cycles. It currently makes up about 0.1% of overall hydrogen production, but this is expected to rise as the cost of renewable energy continues to fall. Many sectors also now see green hydrogen as the best way of harmonizing the intermittency of renewables – storing excess energy at times of low demand to be fed back into the grid when demand rises – while decarbonizing the chemical, industrial and transportation sectors. Hydrogen produced from nuclear energy via electrolysis is sometimes viewed as a subset of green hydrogen, but can also be referred to as 'pink' hydrogen.

Other colours of hydrogen:

Turquoise hydrogen refers to a way of creating the element through a process called methane pyrolysis, which generates solid carbon.
As such, there is no need for CCS and the carbon can be used in other applications, like tyre manufacturing or as soil improver.
Its production is still in the experimental phase. Pink hydrogen, like green hydrogen, is created through electrolysis of water is powered by nuclear energy rather than renewables. The extreme temperatures from nuclear reactors could also be used in other forms of hydrogen production by producing steam for more efficient electrolysis, for example.

Meanwhile yellow hydrogen is the term used for hydrogen made through electrolysis of water using solar power, although some use it to mean hydrogen generated through electrolysis of water using mixed sources depending on what is available. Hydrogen can also be generated from biomass and, depending on the type of biomass and CCS technologies, can have lower net carbon emissions than black/brown or grey hydrogen.

Biomass:

Biomass, is a renewable organic resource, includes agriculture crop residues (such as corn stover or wheat straw), forest residues, special crops grown specifically for energy use (such as switchgrass or willow trees), organic municipal solid waste, and animal wastes. This renewable resource can be used to produce hydrogen, 'along with other by-products, by gasification'. Note that 'other by-products' is the 'sanitised' term for carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energy-green-hydrogen/

In terms of distribution and storing of hydrogen (for example, to filling stations and re-fuelling cars), To turn hydrogen into a liquid to transport and store it, the pressures used are usually either 350 bar or 700 bar (5,000 – 10,000 PSI). The challenges that involves in creating the infrastructure (as compared to having say 2,000 litres of petrol or diesel sloshing about in a petrol/diesel tanker at normal atmospheric pressure) is self evident, and another debate!

The problem with looking into crystal balls to predict the future, is that we see more balls than crystals.

Hope that's of interest.

(I claim no special expertise, and have no axes to grind on this topic).

David.
 
“With Huawei offering a 1-km-per-second charging range, an EV with an 80kWh battery and a range of 600 km could easily be charged from 0 to 100% capacity within eight minutes.”

https://www.locate2u.com/technology/fast-ev-charging-huawei-tesla-china/#:~:text=These ultrafast units developed by,charge takes approximately 19 minutes.
The same article tells you that the output of these chargers is 600Kw !
Some big old cables and infrastructure upgrades necessary to have these. I would imagine if we go down that route then the solution will be the same as in China, big recharging stations with multiple chargers. It simply wouldn't be viable to do it any other way.
No different to the current situation where we take our car to the petrol station, except I suspect there would be fewer of them. If you think of your current petrol station with, let's say eight pumps. That would equate to 8x600Kw power supply being required. Simply not feasible to do this in most places as the cost would probably be prohibitive.
You can't get around the basic problem. Whatever the capacity of the battery that is the amount of power you have to put back in to recharge it. The bigger the battery, and the faster you want to charge it, the bigger the power required to do it. Of course you could still slow charge it overnight on your home charger, if you have that facility.
So yes the development of a battery that CAN be charged at that rate is indeed a game changer, but as with most things there are drawbacks.
 
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It's important to understand that there is a difference between what is technically and practically possible and what is economically feasible.

It's very difficult to find objective information about hydrogen because almost all available information comes sources which have vested interests, and rather too many so called 'climate activists' (anarchists), exhibit an almost religious fervour that whatever it takes must be done instantly and we must 'suffer for our sins' (despite the fact that they conduct their lives in a similar manner to everyone else).

As with so many emotive topics, rational' objective debate is next to impossible.

For a long time to come, the UK will continue to depend on oil, gas and to a small extent coal. By the new government restricting extraction in the UK (with the very best of intentions), much of it will continue to be imported, increasing the UK's fuel insecurity and energy costs. That's not a political statement, just a fact of life.

Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical structure in the universe but unlike fossil fuels such as coal, methane gas and oil, it does not exist as a primary fuel source - it has to be extracted from primary fuel feedstocks. Whichever process is used, it is costly, takes a lot of energy to extract hydrogen, and most process involve the release of carbon, which needs to be captured and stored. Only the electrolysis of water into hydrogen and oxygen uses a renewable feedstock, but again, the process takes a lot of electricity which - to be 'green' - needs to be from renewable sources (wind and solar). Solar electricity is of course only available during daylight hours, so any hydrogen generated during daylight hours will need to be stored. The cost of the electricity needs to be factored into the price of hydrogen, and the 'opportunity cost' is that if used to generate hydrogen, that electricity cannot be used as a primary source of energy for heat, light, or power. Thus hydrogen will never be cheaper than electricity.

If it's ever produced on a grand scale, who knows what it might do to the rain cycle? In nature, water in the oceans and earth's surface evaporates, forms clouds, and falls as rain or snow, often in the wrong places, sometimes causing floods or droughts. If ever hydrogen from electrolysis of water is adopted on a huge scale (big 'if') vast quantities of 'man made' water vapour will be released into the atmosphere, then what? Just a passing thought.

When you hear of buses, cars, central heating boilers running on hydrogen, the focus is always on the undoubted environmental benefit at the point of use. A bus or car in the centre of a city only emits water vapour. However, the hydrogen won't be 'green' as only 4% of the world's current production of hydrogen is 'green'. There are four main sources for the commercial production of hydrogen: natural gas, oil, coal, and electrolysis; which account for 48%, 30%, 18% and 4% of the world's hydrogen production respectively. Fossil fuels are the dominant source of industrial hydrogen. Hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of natural gas. One ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO2, a greenhouse gas that may be captured.

So when you see a hydrogen bus, car or central heating boiler, the harmful emissions occur at the reforming plant - not the car's tailpipe, and the hydrogen comes from non-renewable sources. It makes little economic sense and even less environmental sense, to use electricity to convert methane (CH4) into carbon dioxide and hydrogen, with all the costs that entails, to power hydrogen central heating boilers, when the methane (natural gas), could - as it is now - be burnt directly in gas central heating boilers.

This is often referred to as 'grey' hydrogen, when emissions are released to the atmosphere, and 'blue' when emissions are captured through carbon capture and storage (CCS) Blue hydrogen has been estimated to have a carbon footprint 20% greater than burning gas or coal for heat and 60% greater when compared to burning diesel for heat.

Words such as' green' hydrogen, 'blue' hydrogen are bandied about without most of us knowing what they actually mean, so it might be worth a mention:

Black, brown and grey hydrogen:

Grey hydrogen is the most common form and is generated from natural gas, or methane, through a process called “steam reforming”.
This process generates just a smaller amount of emissions than black or brown hydrogen, which uses black (bituminous) or brown (lignite) coal in the hydrogen-making process. Black or brown hydrogen is the most environmentally damaging as both the CO2 and carbon monoxide generated during the process are not recaptured.

Blue hydrogen

Hydrogen is labelled blue whenever the carbon generated from steam reforming is captured and stored underground through industrial carbon capture and storage (CSS). Blue hydrogen is, therefore, sometimes referred to as carbon neutral as the emissions are not dispersed in the atmosphere.
However, some argue that “low carbon” would be a more accurate description, as 10-20% of the generated carbon cannot be captured.

Green hydrogen

Green hydrogen – also referred to as “clean hydrogen” – is produced by using clean energy from renewable energy sources, such as solar or wind power, to split water into two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom through a process called electrolysis. Renewables cannot always generate energy at all hours of the day and green hydrogen production could help use the excess generated during peak cycles. It currently makes up about 0.1% of overall hydrogen production, but this is expected to rise as the cost of renewable energy continues to fall. Many sectors also now see green hydrogen as the best way of harmonizing the intermittency of renewables – storing excess energy at times of low demand to be fed back into the grid when demand rises – while decarbonizing the chemical, industrial and transportation sectors. Hydrogen produced from nuclear energy via electrolysis is sometimes viewed as a subset of green hydrogen, but can also be referred to as 'pink' hydrogen.

Other colours of hydrogen:

Turquoise hydrogen refers to a way of creating the element through a process called methane pyrolysis, which generates solid carbon.
As such, there is no need for CCS and the carbon can be used in other applications, like tyre manufacturing or as soil improver.
Its production is still in the experimental phase. Pink hydrogen, like green hydrogen, is created through electrolysis of water is powered by nuclear energy rather than renewables. The extreme temperatures from nuclear reactors could also be used in other forms of hydrogen production by producing steam for more efficient electrolysis, for example.

Meanwhile yellow hydrogen is the term used for hydrogen made through electrolysis of water using solar power, although some use it to mean hydrogen generated through electrolysis of water using mixed sources depending on what is available. Hydrogen can also be generated from biomass and, depending on the type of biomass and CCS technologies, can have lower net carbon emissions than black/brown or grey hydrogen.

Biomass:

Biomass, is a renewable organic resource, includes agriculture crop residues (such as corn stover or wheat straw), forest residues, special crops grown specifically for energy use (such as switchgrass or willow trees), organic municipal solid waste, and animal wastes. This renewable resource can be used to produce hydrogen, 'along with other by-products, by gasification'. Note that 'other by-products' is the 'sanitised' term for carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/clean-energy-green-hydrogen/

In terms of distribution and storing of hydrogen (for example, to filling stations and re-fuelling cars), To turn hydrogen into a liquid to transport and store it, the pressures used are usually either 350 bar or 700 bar (5,000 – 10,000 PSI). The challenges that involves in creating the infrastructure (as compared to having say 2,000 litres of petrol or diesel sloshing about in a petrol/diesel tanker at normal atmospheric pressure) is self evident, and another debate!

The problem with looking into crystal balls to predict the future, is that we see more balls than crystals.

Hope that's of interest.

(I claim no special expertise, and have no axes to grind on this topic).

David.
I think the production is only really viable if it can be done using green energy.
To do it any other way just gives you a benefit at the point of use, but at the expense of damage elsewhere that outweighs that benefit.
As to transport and filling equipment it is all being done now on a small scale. So we know how to do this. I can't really see any reason why it can't be scaled up.
Shouldn't be technically difficult to develop an agreed specification for forecourt equipment, for example, that would allow Mr or Mrs Miggins to fill up safely.
Agreeing a universal filler design, which would clearly be required, would probably be more of a challenge, but not insurmountable.
 
From what I’ve been reading recently, increasing numbers of EV drivers aren’t even buying chargers for their cars. They are “Granny Charging” them instead from a 13A socket. You should use an EV specific socket but they aren’t expensive. A five or six hour overnight charge this way may only add another 50 miles of range for the following day but it seems many are finding this more than enough.

IMG_1260.jpeg
 
From what I’ve been reading recently, increasing numbers of EV drivers aren’t even buying chargers for their cars. They are “Granny Charging” them instead from a 13A socket. You should use an EV specific socket but they aren’t expensive. A five or six hour overnight charge this way may only add another 50 miles of range for the following day but it seems many are finding this more than enough.

View attachment 184518
Interesting. It's only protected by an RCBO, as far as I can see. PEN faults are the danger with outdoor charging, according to stuff I've read.
 
Interesting. It's only protected by an RCBO, as far as I can see. PEN faults are the danger with outdoor charging, according to stuff I've read.
I’ve no idea about the electrics but an electrician on YouTube that installs chargers couldn’t see a problem except some of these sockets aren’t big enough to accommodate the bulk of some EV plugs.
 
I’ve no idea about the electrics but an electrician on YouTube that installs chargers couldn’t see a problem except some of these sockets aren’t big enough to accommodate the bulk of some EV plugs.
Without wanting to go off at a tangent too much, I've found that, in hot weather, the plug can get worryingly warm when fully enclosed in that sort of socket.
Fortunately we don't get a lot of hot weather..

My electrician is quite scathing about such things, but I have no stats for PEN faults related accidents.
 
Without wanting to go off at a tangent too much, I've found that, in hot weather, the plug can get worryingly warm when fully enclosed in that sort of socket.
Fortunately we don't get a lot of hot weather..

My electrician is quite scathing about such things, but I have no stats for PEN faults related accidents.
That is interesting. I have waterproof sockets on the outside of my workshop for convenience when using mains stuff in the garden.
Over the weekend I was using a cement mixer for most of the day, and I noticed that the plug was pretty warm when removed from the enclosed socket.
 
That is interesting. I have waterproof sockets on the outside of my workshop for convenience when using mains stuff in the garden.
Over the weekend I was using a cement mixer for most of the day, and I noticed that the plug was pretty warm when removed from the enclosed socket.
Was the socket in direct sunlight? My outdoor socket gets very warm even with nothing plugged into it when it’s sunny.
 
No, mine are under the eaves. Never really noticed it before, mind you the mixer probably uses a fair bit more power that the hedge trimmers etc that are normally plugged into those sockets.
 
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