Electric vehicles - again

[Phil Pascoe]

There are apparently 18,000,000 properties where vehicles cannot be charged on site, so if we take two vehicles per property (optimistically low around here) that's 36,000,000 vehicles queueing daily for public charging points. They'd better be adequate.

 

[PhilipL]

I use public transport in a city and am thinking of doing without a car. But swearing and aggressive behaviour on the bus is not pleasant. No wonder people like cars.

 

[John Brown]

Can the "people" who have done these sums be trusted statistics is the art of data manipulation after all.
Carbon footprint is not the only concern, there is also the amount of rare earth minerals currently required until carbon supercapacitors, air/iron, sodium ion or whatever technology actually wins the race to the next stage of energy density.
Keeping already made cars going is better than any new vehicle electric or not in some ways.

I would love an Arrival van for work, I think they have some fantastic design details and innovative structural design but it is a pipe dream for me and most "working peasents".
I am not against progress but I do think the distance to go is further than we think, there is so much infrastructure that needs to be changed and upgraded, The government are not the people who should be doing it ( just look at the electrification of the trains shambles ) unfortunately they are in charge.


Ollie

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were against progress, I was optimistically suggesting that the current hiccoughs with EVs will be ironed out in the future.

 

[selectortone]

There is our national usage of electricity over the last 28 days. Much higher in the day than at night, we have a lot of capacity, not in all areas admittedly but what we really lack is storage.

Charging EVs at night is effectively using them as storage.

 

[HamsterJam]

I think we are still in early days with EVs. ICE technology has evolved over many decades fuelled (excuse the pun) by substantial R&D budgets.
EVs are still expensive just like a lot of technology has been when first introduced but I am sure they will continue to become more mainstream and affordable as demand picks up and with manufacturers investing substantial money into R&D, particularly battery technology.

 

[Limey Lurker]

If you know nothing about them Jacob, as you state, how can you know the batteries are the weakest link?

My experience is that is utter nonsense. We have had two fully electric Teslas (mine and my business partner's). Mine is 4 years old. Battery remains 98% efficient. Software and charging improvements mean range has gone up, not down. My wife's business is busy switching to all electric cars and service vans. Running costs are shooting down.

Typical range of EV's is increasing. Charger network is increasing rapidly. Charge time is coming down.

EV is here for the long term. HFC is always touted as a replacement, but has almost nil penetration so far.

IF there IS a weakest link, then it must be the latest technology involved in the car, as all the other parts of a car have been proved manytimes. Brakes, wheels, steering, seats, windows and electric multi-phase motors are none of them new, and Tesla's don't appear to be problematic, and their replacement cost is similar to that of carbon fuelled cars' parts.

 

[DRC]

Most EV manufacturers warrant a high level of battery capacity for 8-10 years, sometimes mileage limited.

A few car companies warrant ICE cars up to 7 years (eg: Kia) - no reason why it should be different for EVs. However, the first owner is typically concerned with only the first few years of ownership, it is the second and third owners who need a longer warranty.

The only major different in servicing costs will relate to the engine and gearbox - servicing is mainly related to checking and changing oil and filters - perhaps £50-100 of the total cost of the service + less frequent cambelt and spark plugs.

More major repairs are likely to be much less for an EV - simply because wear and failure will usually relate to the much higher number of moving parts in an ICE engine, clutch and gearbox.

Against that (for the moment) manufacturing and operating experience with ICE has ensured designs will have been refined over the years to minimise failure, whereas for EV I suspect we are still moving up the learning curve.

I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.

 

[Geoff_S]

I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.

But that's one of the benefits of these forums. One learns so much

 

[Lockyear2810]

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine.

I’m another who is concerned about the capacity of the grid to cope with charging EVs. Especially when you have kids wanting to charge their cars and you need to rely totally on electricity to provide your heating, hot water and cooking needs.
You see massive solar farms being built but personally I don’t think they will help much with nighttime car charging.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I thought ICE was in car entertainment these abbreviations some of you use are confusing.

I agree, Democratic Republic of the Congo.

 

[Spectric]

as all the other parts of a car have been proved manytimes. Brakes, wheels, steering, seats, windows and electric multi-phase motors

But take into account the cost saving initiatiives that have been undertaken over the years by the manufacturers, these are not for our benefit but to keep profit margins up. There was a time when you could buy overhaul kits for various parts of your car, now it is the complete unit at great additional cost. This saves the manufacturer money in not having to handle these spares as it is now just one component and your main dealer only needs a fitter to replace and not a garage mechanic / technician so they save as well. Another example is where they make the disk and hub as a single assembly so no more changing your disk, just the complete hub assembly which seems more common on the rear of PSA.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There was a time when you could buy overhaul kits for various parts of your car, now it is the complete unit at great additional cost.

I agree with the sentiment - perhaps like you I date from an era when any self-respecting lad could overhaul the brakes and swap a clutch. To run an old banger one needed to be mechanically able.

However, I suspect much fewer people bother with diy maintenance. If you are paying the garage to do the job it is a balance of mechanics time at £50-90 ph vs increased component costs.

 

[Just4Fun]

I agree with the sentiment - perhaps like you I date from an era when any self-respecting lad could overhaul the brakes and swap a clutch. To run an old banger one needed to be mechanically able.

However, I suspect much fewer people bother with diy maintenance.

Back in the days when I did all my own maintenance cars generally (and especially the cars I could afford) were much simpler. Easier to understand, easier access, easier to work on and only basic tools required. Now I rarely do anything for myself.

 

[Ollie78]

I'm sorry, I wasn't suggesting that you were against progress, I was optimistically suggesting that the current hiccoughs with EVs will be ironed out in the future.

Optimism is certainly good. I think when we get the next generation of batteries and many more charging stations it will be much better. Eventually the second hand market will be in a reasonable place.

Ollie

 

[John Brown]

ICE always meant In Circuit Emulator/Emulation to me, but context is everything.

 

[Geoff_S]

ICE always meant In Circuit Emulator/Emulation to me, but context is everything.

Gin & tonic for me …

 

[HamsterJam]

Public transport is the future and needs no technological advance.

Dunno about technological advance - certainly needs investment though.
Nearest town is about 10miles away and there is one bus a week to get there, returning about an hour later.
I suppose we could always get a pony and trap to do the weekly shop

 

[dillon]

It took me less than 30 seconds to check the " fields of dumped Tesla's" story and if you can't be bothered to check yourself I can let you know it's boll**ks. Car batteries wether Lion or lead acid are valuable and recyclable and faulty ones can be replaced.
There are many valid reasons why an individual may or may not want an electric vehicle so there's really no need to make any up.

Regardless of the Tesla story the fact is that batteries are expensive to replace. Due to this the older your car gets the faster its value will depreciate, particularly with the price of lithium increasing at its current pace. I can definitely see relatively young cars being scrapped for recycling due to nobody wanting to take a chance on older batteries.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I and other half need to travel from home in Taunton to Emersons Green (a Bristol suburb) for a meeting at 11.00 on Tuesday 27th. An opportunity to understand the merits of public transport.

• 1.5 miles from house to Taunton station. Options - walk (no heavy bags) ~30mins. Bus needs to change in town centre ~30mins - ~ £4 return. Leave home at 08.15. Park at station or taxi both more expensive.
• Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads. Off peak day return at 8.53 is £15.60.
• Arrive at Temple Meads at 09.24. Emersons Green is 10 miles away. Taxi (guess) is £30 return and should take ~22 mins. Bus is 55 mins - (say) £8 return. Arrive at 09.20.

Car - per Google - is 57 miles and 1hr 5 mins. Cost for fuel return at 45mpg is ~£20. Add (say) 50% for wear and tear (tyres, servicing) = £30 return.

Summary

The sample journey is not an anomalous invented trip to prove a point - it is a journey from a medium sized county town to a major UK city. Total cost by public transport for 2 is a minimum of £33.20 for those aged folk who qualify for a bus pass. For the fit, healthy and young the total cost is ~£55 (more if using taxi). Elapsed time door to door is ~3hrs.

Total cost by car is £30 and elapsed time ~1hr 10mins.

Neither allow for rail strikes, congestion, cancelled services etc. Building in a contingency with car simply means leaving earlier public transport risks more premium rush hour fares.

Note - the taxpayer substantially subsidises public transport, motorists are net taxpayers.

The answer is clear - public transport is so fundamentally inefficient in terms of cost and time it is not fit for purpose. It has a role only in providing a transport for those who cannot travel independently (a legitimate social service), and into major urban centres where environmental and congestion issues may dominate.

 

[John Brown]

I and other half need to travel from home in Taunton to Emersons Green (a Bristol suburb) for a meeting at 11.00 on Tuesday 27th. An opportunity to understand the merits of public transport.

• 1.5 miles from house to Taunton station. Options - walk (no heavy bags) ~30mins. Bus needs to change in town centre ~30mins - ~ £4 return. Leave home at 08.15. Park at station or taxi both more expensive.
• Taunton to Bristol Temple Meads. Off peak day return at 8.53 is £15.60.
• Arrive at Temple Meads at 09.24. Emersons Green is 10 miles away. Taxi (guess) is £30 return and should take ~22 mins. Bus is 55 mins - (say) £8 return. Arrive at 09.20.

Car - per Google - is 57 miles and 1hr 5 mins. Cost for fuel return at 45mpg is ~£20. Add (say) 50% for wear and tear (tyres, servicing) = £30 return.

Summary

The sample journey is not an anomalous invented trip to prove a point - it is a journey from a medium sized county town to a major UK city. Total cost by public transport for 2 is a minimum of £33.20 for those aged folk who qualify for a bus pass. For the fit, healthy and young the total cost is ~£55 (more if using taxi). Elapsed time door to door is ~3hrs.

Total cost by car is £30 and elapsed time ~1hr 10mins.

Neither allow for rail strikes, congestion, cancelled services etc. Building in a contingency with car simply means leaving earlier public transport risks more premium rush hour fares.

Note - the taxpayer substantially subsidises public transport, motorists are net taxpayers.

The answer is clear - public transport is so fundamentally inefficient in terms of cost and time it is not fit for purpose. It has a role only in providing a transport for those who cannot travel independently (a legitimate social service), and into major urban centres where environmental and congestion issues may dominate.

I agree. 40 years ago I used to travel up to Edgeware road in Paddington for work. I used to marvel that it was cheaper for me to drive there as the only occupant of a 3 litre Ford Granada than to take public transport. Even allowing for the occasional parking ticket. Now, if we want to go to Norfolk, for example, it's still cheaper to drive in our not-really-optimised-for-long-journeys PHEV.
It makes no sense to me, but I guess Dr Beeching has a lot to answer for. It should be the futiure, but I can't see it happening any time soon.