Paul Sellers video

[woodbrains]

I don't think I've put any significant wear or damage on my musical instrument of choice in twenty years of regular playing - but I think you need to be Keith Emerson to actually cause real harm to a Hammond.

BugBear

Hello,
You could try harder! (hammer)

I got a Veritas LA jack from online auction, and it was used near mint. The seller was a boat restorer on the Mersey, and was obviously suffering a downturn in business and was selling off some of his tools, amongst them a lot of Veritas things. It was a bit sad this was the case for him, as he said he thought the tools were superb and intended to use them, not pander them. But his loss was my gain. I didn't have enough money to buy a couple of other things from him that I liked. The occurrence of things for sale online is absolutely no indication of those things usefulness, nor the character of the seller. The insistence that any such inferences can be made and the continual search for 'evidence' supporting such is really unintelligible. Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

......
It's a bit like saying that there are a lot of nearly new Mercedes cars being advertised, therefore Mercedes cars are rubbish.

Not at all.
There are also a lot of old Mercs for sale, or newish ones with high milage etc. You can be certain that very few of them ever don't get used. In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish.
The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets

...Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument.

Why not? Facts are evidence. There may be other facts and factors but you start with what you've got in front of you.

 

[iNewbie]

In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish.
The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets

...Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument.

Why not? Facts are evidence. There may be other facts and factors but you start with what you've got in front of you.

Feel free to show us all where they are overpromoted/oversold to beginners - you've made the claim now back it up. We'd all like to see it from the same planet as you do, Jacob - seriously, you are deluded at times...

People make their own choices. Some people would rather buy what they buy and sell it when they do for whatever reason(s) that/they may be. Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain - except you and CS. Get a life.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

LN, LV and Clifton have not been on the market for very long. LN started either late 1980s or early '90s in the USA, and didn't become available in the UK until the mid 1990s (I bought a couple of LNs not long after they started marketing in the UK - with the exception of people like Karl Holtey, Bill Carter and Bristol Design, they were only quality new tools available at the time.) They added small saws not long after (I bought a LN Independence dovetail saw that was streets ahead of anything else available at the time). Clifton came along in the late 1990s with shoulder planes, and added bench planes either very late '90s or early '00s - I'd have bought Clifton if they'd been on the market when I bought the LNs. I'm not sure when LV started, but I don't reacall any LV planes around at that time, though I do have a LV wheel-type marking gauge from about that time.

If they haven't been going for long, it follows that any LN, Clifton or LV planes or tools that turn up will be in pretty much new condition. The time when warning bells should ring is when someone tries to sell you a 'pre-war Lie-Nielsen' or '1930s Clifton shoulder plane'.

As to why people buy stuff new and then sell it on almost immediately, it happens. I sometimes take in Ebay parcels for the lady next door who buys a lot of her clothes that way - she reckons there are swathes of 'yummy mummy' types who buy designer stuff new, wear it once and Ebay it. Don't ask me why, but they do - so she gets the stuff at about 90% discount, and she usually looks immaculate. Maybe some people do the same with 'hobby stuff'. Don't whinge about it - just snap up the bargains while they're going. Some fool throwing their money away on things they don't understand and didn't really need could be your gain!

 

[Jacob]

.... Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain .....

A large proportion of forum chat is about exactly that. What/where/who/why to buy/avoid etc. Haven't you noticed? And very useful too.

 

[iNewbie]

.... Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain .....

A large proportion of forum chat is about exactly that. What/where/who/why to buy/avoid etc. Haven't you noticed? And very useful too.

Nice swerve on the old quote there: C'mon lad, back it up. You made the claim.


"The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets"

You wrote it now prove it:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I don't think the likes of LN, LV and Clifton are over priced. They are not cheap, but their prices are fair for what you get. Making well thought-out tools from good quality materials, to high standards, has a cost. Providing the customer back-up costs, too. I think these firms market their products honestly, too.

If you don't want to buy the products of these companies, that's fine - don't buy 'em. It's a bit presumptious to say that nobody else should buy them either - other people can make their own decisions for their own reasons.

 

[Noel]

In any case we aren't arguing that they are rubbish.
The main argument (with the tools) is that they are over priced, over promoted, oversold, to beginners. I think this is roughly true across the whole range of novelty tools and gadgets

...Speculate all you like, but realise that none of it can be used as fact support argument.

Why not? Facts are evidence. There may be other facts and factors but you start with what you've got in front of you.

Feel free to show us all where they are overpromoted/oversold to beginners - you've made the claim now back it up. We'd all like to see it from the same planet as you do, Jacob - seriously, you are deluded at times...

People make their own choices. Some people would rather buy what they buy and sell it when they do for whatever reason(s) that/they may be. Why it concerns you is beyond me. Nobody is on any forum complaining about what they bought/purchased/sold at a loss/gain - except you and CS. Get a life.

You were given some advice recently. Best to take it on board.

 

[Bluekingfisher]

Having read the past two or three pages of this thread I am prepared to stick my neck out and say I consider myself one of the, buy, sell, buy, sell types.

I have to say I am a hobby woodworker, have been for 20 - 25 years or so, during which time I reckon I have spent literally thousands on my hobby. Am I ashamed or regretful of such purchases and sales....not for a second. It is my main hobby, don't drink (much) don't smoke and have stopped chasing women a long time ago. The house is paid for, I have a bed to lie in and the bread bin is full. What am I to do with my disposable hard earned? I can't take it with me. :wink:

That said, most of the items I buy are from online auctions where I have considered the value ( to me) and purchased accordingly, usually at a fraction of the cost of a new item but on occasion purchased at or close to retail pricing. I would probably purchase new more often if it wasn't for the inflated VAT we have to pay the robbers of Westminster.

I make my judgements on available reviews and literature and from those who currently own the relevant item. I even try them out before realising the item was not for me and subsequently selling it on. I believe we call it consumerism, it's what makes the world go round. I don't know if everyday woodworking enthusiasts have more disposable income now than they did 20 -30 years ago but there certainly was not as many goodies available then to spend it on. Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.

David

 

[Jacob]

...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.

David

I'm not concerned at all how you spend your money.
But I don't see why it causes so much concern (rage and anger even!) when simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things are offered up. This is stuff that beginners need to know, particularly if they don't have much cash - e.g. crazy sharpening could increase their budget many times and put them right off from the very beginning.

 

[bugbear]

...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.

David

I'm not concerned at all how you spend your money.
But I don't see why it causes so much concern (rage and anger even!) when simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things are offered up. This is stuff that beginners need to know, particularly if they don't have much cash - e.g. crazy sharpening could increase their budget many times and put them right off from the very beginning.

I've once one guy call other people's methods "crazy". Not the language
of thoughtful debate. Can't remember when I saw it.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.

David

I'm not concerned at all how you spend your money.
But I don't see why it causes so much concern (rage and anger even!) when simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things are offered up. This is stuff that beginners need to know, particularly if they don't have much cash - e.g. crazy sharpening could increase their budget many times and put them right off from the very beginning.

It's a very good thing that "simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things" are put forward. It gives people knowledge, and that is power.

The problem lies in the denigration of any other method, for any other reason. If it works for somebody, it's a valid method for them. We're all different, and what works for one may not work for another. The guitar player may not get on at all with a french horn, and vice versa. It also depends what they're trying to achieve - do they want to make a suite of furniture, or just potter quietly in the shed doing stuff at their own pace, away from the pressures of modern life? If it's the latter, and they want to spend their time seeing how sharp they can get a set of tools rather than making furniture, what business is it of anybody else to say they're wrong? How much someone is prepared to pay for their hobby or pastime is their business and nobody else's, too.

 

[MIGNAL]

Well I actually can remember when Jacob first uttered the 'rounded bevel' sharpening method. He was pretty much derided on here, laughed at. You could tell that folk were pssng themselves. I even had a little chuckle myself. I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly coz I had used a very similar method for years.
That was the days when Oil stones were in Black n' White. Not longer after that I was afflicted with the great sharpening plague.:shock:
Sometimes it's good to go over old ground and take a fresh look at things. Last week I tried sharpening a plane blade to 600G and trying it out on some Bubinga. I shouldn't have been surprised but it really did quite a spiffing job - much, much better than I expected.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Well I actually can remember when Jacob first uttered the 'rounded bevel' sharpening method. He was pretty much derided on here, laughed at. You could tell that folk were pssng themselves. I even had a little chuckle myself. I obviously wasn't thinking very clearly coz I had used a very similar method for years.
That was the days when Oil stones were in Black n' White. Not longer after that I was afflicted with the great sharpening plague.:shock:
Sometimes it's good to go over old ground and take a fresh look at things. Last week I tried sharpening a plane blade to 600G and trying it out on some Bubinga. I shouldn't have been surprised but it really did quite a spiffing job - much, much better than I expected.

Absolutely. No problem at all with putting forward methods of doing things.

"I use this method, it works for me and I commend it to all." - super; we're all the wiser.

"I use this method, it works for me and you're an idiot if you do it another way." - Hmm. Not so good.

 

[Noel]

...... Suffice to say, we live in a free world and can do as we please with our wedge (within the curtilage of the law) so I can't see why the pleasure and excitement of buying tools brings me causes concern for others.

David

I'm not concerned at all how you spend your money.
But I don't see why it causes so much concern (rage and anger even!) when simple, cheap, effective, traditional ways of doing things are offered up. This is stuff that beginners need to know, particularly if they don't have much cash - e.g. crazy sharpening could increase their budget many times and put them right off from the very beginning.

I've once one guy call other people's methods "crazy". Not the language
of thoughtful debate. Can't remember when I saw it.

BugBear

BB, I believe you are due some Tin.

Joined: 16 Jul 2004, 13:42

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Got it. Took a minute, though.

 

[Jacob]

Basically I intend to continue saying what I think, for evermore. :roll:
It'd be less fraught if people stuck to issues instead of personalising things and bandying insults about.
NB "crazy sharpening" is a trivial fair comment IMHO and hardly an issue to get self righteous about. Irritating perhaps, but then we are grownups and it's not a personal comment. I'll continue saying it.
I've had to run the gauntlet through pages of abuse for daring to suggest alternatives. Riots in the forums and big schisms as some may remember. Now it's broadly acceptable to mention rounded bevels and oil stones. The strange thing about it is the way they were written out of the book - I'm still not sure how, when or why this happened.
Typically odd and unacceptable is the hysteria which greeted my recent explanation of scrub planes and camber. I would have expanded on that trivial theme but feel that there is a weird form of censorship going on here - why should I have to run the gauntlet over such little topics? "Silly" or "deluded" is also not the language of thoughtful debate.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"Basically I intend to continue saying what I think, for evermore. :roll: "

Seems like you already have... :roll:

 

[bugbear]

Typically odd and unacceptable is the hysteria which greeted my recent explanation of scrub planes and camber.

No hysteria, at least on my part; I simply thought (and continue to think) that the analysis put forward was based on false assumptions, and therefore wrong.

You're not a wise court Jester, speaking truth unto power, although I know that's how you like to think of yourself. I might think you were interested in discussion (as you claim) if I'd ever seen you acknowledge the merit of someone else's idea and change your mind, but in 7000 posts, I don't recall it happening.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

..
You're not a wise court Jester, speaking truth unto power, although I know that's how you like to think of yourself....

Personally offensive as usual, which is always a good indication that someone had lost an argument.
On the stupid issue of scrub planes/camber I happen to be right and it's not rocket science, but let's face it no serious discussion is possible in the atmosphere of this forum.