Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm actually reading The Village Carpenter at the moment.
It's a wonderful book.

When you've finished, get hold of The Wheelwright's Shop by George Sturt.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another.

From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.

 

[ecokestove]

Buying old and help save the planet! Recycling is the future and keep another set of people in jobs, servicing, sharpening, repairing, buying/selling etc

When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.

 

[Adam W.]

From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.

But, but....people telling other people they're wrong makes interesting threads.

 

[Jacob]

When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that the lifetime servicing of an old whatever would involve more work than making a new one. I expect someone has worked it out somewhere!

 

[Jacob]

From about twelve years old I set my planes by touch, not sight. My woodwork master if he saw me would whip the plane of my hands, sight it and hand it back. After doing this half a dozen times and finding he didn't need to adjust it he said I wasn't doing it properly, but it made no difference - the result was the same. Fifty five years later I still set them by feel, but I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else they were wrong.

Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But, but....people telling other people they're wrong makes interesting threads.

Maybe it would if if it weren't the same people doing it all the time.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!

I don't tell you you're wrong, I object to you telling other people they are - like when you say how dreadful water stones are, then admit to never having used one.

 

[Jacob]

I don't tell you you're wrong, I object to you telling other people they are - like when you say how dreadful water stones are, then admit to never having used one.

I was going by what everybody else says. Must be them thats wrong then - don't blame me!

 

[pidgeonpost]

I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.

Don't you know that wrecks 'em?

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Another good reason for not using a honing jig.

Well yes exactly. I've been doing the fig of 8 for years but the way it helps clean the stone I only recently twigged, as an irritating but of sawdust, wire edge whatever it was, suddenly disappeared off the edge.
n. b. "8" has nothing to do with it and can cause confusion if you over-think it - basically you just move the tool round and round and up and down the stone as you would if wax polishing a table top. More spiral than anything, but easy and obvious.

Jacob wrote some of the wisest words regarding woodworking, that being "over-think-it".

In the US, we have a cottage industry of instructors, be it in person classes, blogs/vlogs, magazines/books or what have you. All compete for our attention, all subscribing to what is old is now new. Listening/reading their qualifications is humorous, with some mere hobbyists with a year or three under their belt. In the end, it is the fans that make most of these into what they proclaim.

Case in point, is Dave Weaver's friend, George Wilson. George is way beyond a superb craftsmen, and if any here have viewed any Colonial Williamsburg videos, or some of Roy Underhill's shows, you have probably seen some of his work. I would love to apprentice with George and the various forums he used to frequent should have had him on the highest pedestal, but they didn't. Why? Well, George can be a bit prickly, mainly due to health issues and age.

 

[Droogs]

That's different, everyone keeps telling you you're wrong @Jacob. It's a national obsession.

 

[pidgeonpost]

I've kind of wondered in the long term how well each woodworker would do if they saw what they were supposed to do and then spent no more time watching a particular joint (so, you get one good video of dovetails and then thereafter force yourself to identify one aesthetic problem each time you cut a joint or set of joints and solve it).

I'm thinking that the average person solving their issues with dovetail joints will be further ahead if they solve them than if they continue to look for more tips. We all need more instruction on design and standards than we do on how to hold a saw.

I don't know if this is coming across clearly as i'm in my "mid-afternoon slows" after doing technical work since 7am (it's 2PM here), but it occurs to me that what got me good at joints (good enough that I can make them to any reasonable standard) was solving problems with making them. And I'd bet a lot of people credit a given teacher for showing them how to do something that they would've learned to do on their own.

One of the hardest pills for a beginner (who is already often good at a profession and has to learn what it's like to suck at something for a while again) to swallow is what they're missing is desire and repetition in combination. The desire is usually to get a good result (or have someone promise it) without putting in the repetition. There's usually a bridge out somewhere on that road.

I do take your points, but individual circumstances can dictate the approach.
As a hobbyist with a large garden and other interests, my woodworking tends to be concentrated in the winter months. This means my techniques can get a bit rusty after 6 months off the tools. Previously I'd have refreshed my memory by looking at a textbook, but videos can be very handy.
Also, I seem to be hurtling towards my mid-70's at an uncomfortable speed. This makes me hesitant to stock up on timber I may never use, so I increasingly try to use the stuff I've got, which isn't a lot, and try to avoid wastage.
Couple together my rustiness and the need cut as good a joint as I can get in the last bit of timber of that type, or size, or matching grain etc. and that's where a video refresher sometimes comes in handy.
I'm deeply envious of those who don't need refreshers but I guess they've put in the hours so their expertise is hard earned and we'll deserved.

 

[D_W]

I agree on different strokes (more or less, people learn and retain knowledge differently). That's why I "kind of" soft peddled that with "kind of wondered".

I didn't get good at anything until I stepped away from the idea of individual techniques and learned to mark and work to a mark and then assess individual problems, but a more conscientious person (who is better at learning from others) may be able to work differently and have no issues. It's agonizing for me to do as you mention with long gaps unless the method that I come up with is my own by feel.

I work with people (some are attorneys) who can just remember random crap in order forever, at least seemingly, and access it and review things and call you out in a second, so I've learned a fair amount between creative and conscientious. I'm not very conscientious - solving a problem is natural. Using someone else's methods can be confusing if they're too rigid and complex.

 

[D_W]

You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.

Sometimes people share information on forums without expecting anything in return.

 

[JobandKnock]

When I buy a used plane from eBay I may well be recycling, but I'm not helping employment.

In that case buy a new blade from Ray Iles. Best of both worlds!

 

[JobandKnock]

Er - you keep telling me I'm wrong!

Maybe that's because you are. I know I'm wrong most of the time because my missus tells me I am!

 

[D_W]

Jacob wrote some of the wisest words regarding woodworking, that being "over-think-it".

In the US, we have a cottage industry of instructors, be it in person classes, blogs/vlogs, magazines/books or what have you. All compete for our attention, all subscribing to what is old is now new. Listening/reading their qualifications is humorous, with some mere hobbyists with a year or three under their belt. In the end, it is the fans that make most of these into what they proclaim.

Case in point, is Dave Weaver's friend, George Wilson. George is way beyond a superb craftsmen, and if any here have viewed any Colonial Williamsburg videos, or some of Roy Underhill's shows, you have probably seen some of his work. I would love to apprentice with George and the various forums he used to frequent should have had him on the highest pedestal, but they didn't. Why? Well, George can be a bit prickly, mainly due to health issues and age.

Peoples' opinion of george suffered some due to the fact that he was accessible and his thoughts were firm (principle for its own sake rather than bending it to please people).

I've spent quite a lot of time talking to him, and he's certain of his ability (because little of it isn't backed by some kind of research), but he never wields it for no reason. Pleasantly refreshing to be able to get advice or discuss something without having to guess if it's good advice.

He also has a great ability to say "I don't know" or "I never looked at that" instead of offering an unqualified opinion.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Peoples' opinion of george suffered some due to the fact that he was accessible and his thoughts were firm (principle for its own sake rather than bending it to please people).

I've spent quite a lot of time talking to him, and he's certain of his ability (because little of it isn't backed by some kind of research), but he never wields it for no reason. Pleasantly refreshing to be able to get advice or discuss something without having to guess if it's good advice.

He also has a great ability to say "I don't know" or "I never looked at that" instead of offering an unqualified opinion.

At least a decade ago he and exchanged emails and, IIRC, I sent him some powdered metal for he and his wife to play with in their jewelry making.

In the states, we got way too many self proclaimed experts, confusing simple tasks.

 

[D_W]

At least a decade ago he and exchanged emails and, IIRC, I sent him some powdered metal for he and his wife to play with in their jewelry making.

In the states, we got way too many self proclaimed experts, confusing simple tasks.

The only thing I've ever heard him voice displeasure about is having someone tell him how badly they need his advice, wringing great amounts out of him - especially in writing (he hates to type or text -not his generation) - and then ignoring it. He's not a fan of that.

There were a couple of trolls spreading falsehoods about whether or not he ever made anything, but that's pretty easy to dismiss when you're accomplished.

The separate issue of how do you get information that's useful to people even who are just starting out across when the person that it would originate from is so obsessed with actually making things both during the day and on the evenings and weekends? There's no easy answer to that question - george turned 80 this year and beat his body up his whole life, and I think he's finally giving in to the idea that the making will be limited going forward. He's a whole lot nicer and more generous than his detractors would like people to believe.