Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools

[Jacob]

Not at all, I couldn't give a jot how people choose to waste their time. It does irritate when they they others it's the only/best way to do something, though.

I think you are irritated because someone is not doing it your preferred way.

 

[Selwyn]

The good thing about Sellers is that at least he's not encouraging people to spend cash when other tools are "good enough".

I don't get the reverence though

 

[Jameshow]

I should've been more clear about selling an ideal. I didn't mean that as a positive thing. He's selling escapism and his message has lacked substance from the start, but he's obviously selling something people want (if I were going to choose to spend $700 on a sellers course or an LN plane and perhaps supplement with 4 good clean disston saws, I wouldn't be registering for the course).

The idea that Paul isn't "beholden to tool companies" is overpeddled - that's not how he makes his money. If we all got an accurate accounting (from what I gather) of what he did, it would look like "got a job at a museum, then went from there to teaching students - or perhaps both at once - almost 40 years ago and then saw the power of online media at some point"

I tried to find his portfolio by googling it:

Has anyone seen a portfolio of stuff paul has made by himself? When I googled that, I got this:
https://paulsellers.com/2015/05/working-for-yourself/
This is really fantasy stuff. Full of "could" stuff, along with a comment at the bottom that once you're your "own boss, you can just extend deadlines further and further if it feels like pressure" and the comment that "I won't let anyone tell me I couldn't make a living making furniture".

Well, Paul, you probably couldn't. The finest maker I ever met charged a shop rate of about $50 an hour to do exceedingly fine work that almost nobody else could do. He didn't make furniture. Anyone I can think of who made more became a "company owner", which isn't nearly as pleasant as working by yourself.

This kind of thing is a lot like the investment guru who gives seminars and talks (paul's page says he'll come for a fee and give talks, i'm sure he's already got it all worked out in terms of puffing up a group), and who tells you just how much success you could have if you keep taking their classes and use their strategy. The only thing missing is the fact that they're not employing the strategy, they're seeking out other people to do it. I guess they're all altruistic. The reality is they're definitely not going to coach you about how they really make money - Paul doesn't teach you how he makes his living because it wouldn't be great for pitching how he makes his living (finding beginners), and you might do it.

Here's what I see - first, paul learned as a Joiner (not a cabinetmaker). Then, he learned that teaching people is preferable. Inevitably (my opinion), you'll find people teaching things when they tire of the making, not because they just have the "gift to teach, but are a world class maker, and it's such a tough decision". And not sure if he does in person classes at this point, but the magic of the internet probably makes selling memberships on sites more profitable and easier to manage than coordinating in person classes (e.g., dealing with people who have a relative who gets sick and want a refund, weather issues, ...ahem...covid restrictions). Giving talks is probably pretty profitable, too, if you can be booked to give a talk that you've already given other times.

long story short, if you want to know what's what with tools, find someone who does really fine work, and see what they think. Most of them will have a tool obsession and some won't, but not many will have strong opinions on what you must have because they'll be conveying that you need to have something that you want to make finely, and then the fact that you have to do all of the bits of it finely - not just what feels good.

Paul would have less trouble figuring out how to sharpen a clifton blade easily than he would providing a list of career woodworkers that he's taught.

I do find Paul enigmatic tbh.

This down to earth simple guy teaching basic woodworkers to all and sundry - great.

Then you find a host of production staff behind the camera to give the BBC a run for thier money!

Which is paid for by the berlin wall of all pay walls so that beyond a basic dovetail you gotta pay!!!

Which is the antithesis of his screen persona.

Cheers James

 

[Selwyn]

I do find Paul enigmatic tbh.

This down to earth simple guy teaching basic woodworkers to all and sundry - great.

Then you find a host of production staff behind the camera to give the BBC a run for thier money!

Which is paid for by the berlin wall of all pay walls so that beyond a basic dovetail you gotta pay!!!

Which is the antithesis of his screen persona.

Cheers James

He does produce a fair chunk of free stuff

 

[TheTiddles]

There’s always been the “this is the best” brigade around, on here, in magazines, on YouTube etc… Amusingly they’ve often never tried another way, or follow up a profession about which tool is superior by asking a really basic question on how to use the one they’ve just purchased (so…. how come you were so sure on your previous assertion?).

After a few posts they’re pretty obvious to anyone with a slight degree of critical thinking, and to those that haven’t there’s nothing more that can be done, you can’t educate someone out of a position they weren’t educated into.

Ultimately, look at what they make, their professed methods are presumably what they used. If you like their work, their methods may be worth adopting if you want to make the same.

It may be my confirmation bias, but seems like some of the most insistent people regarding methods and tools, don’t have a lot of work to demonstrate their brilliance.

 

[rob1693]

I can't say I like or agree with a lot of Paul's ramblings but as a teacher of the basics of woodworking layout of joints and tuning up old tools you can't go far wrong I know he's improved my woodworking by a large degree

 

[D_W]

He does produce a fair chunk of free stuff

Imagine how much it would cost to advertise to draw viewers in vs. "producing free stuff".

 

[D_W]

I can't say I like or agree with a lot of Paul's ramblings but as a teacher of the basics of woodworking layout of joints and tuning up old tools you can't go far wrong I know he's improved my woodworking by a large degree

This is something most instructors would do. I guess in the days of the internet, you can't guarantee that all would, but it's basic woodworking. I think of folks learn from anyone and they get to the point that they're ready to drill down on making something good (or not of their choice), then that's fine.

The war between the instructors of the beginners is a little strange, though.

 

[JobandKnock]

...along with a comment at the bottom that once you're your "own boss, you can just extend deadlines further and further if it feels like pressure...

Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?

Here's what I see - first, paul learned as a Joiner (not a cabinetmaker).

I don't know where you are in the world (I suspect the USA) but certainly when Paul came into the trade (late 1960s?) better firms were still running a 3 to 4 year apprenticeship and many expected you to train as a carpenter and joiner. In shopfitting and barfitting firms (my own background) you were taught many cabinetmaking skills such as veneering and finishing (staining and spraying mainly). We were taught to do a lot with machinery as well as by hand, but I was never good enough to be passed over to our resident stair joiner, who could carve handrail wreath damned nigh perfectly. The biggest difference, thougj, is that as joiners we learned nothing about design, aesthetics or the history of furniture because we often work to an architect's drawings. So in technical terms I wouldn't knock him that hard - the man does seem to know a lot about technique

 

[D_W]

I'm sure it was rigorous. It's the cabinetmaker or furniture maker design sense that's so valuable, though.id guess by the 1960s, to find someone who really worked efficiency with mostly hand tools, you'd need to find someone fairly old.

There are actually custom joiners in the us still, but not many, and it tends to be the very wealthy or engineers who hire them. The work done by the local fellow is hell for tight, but some of the details are a little unusual or bland.

 

[JobandKnock]

The biggest handicap to speed is the honing jig and I reckon it causes most of the problems. I haven't touched one in 15 years or so but didn't use them much anyway.

In that case I must be some sort of apostate (or is it heretic?). Out on the job I sharpen in a figure 8 on a couple of diamond plates with oil (because water l0eft on steel = rust) and diamond plates can't go hollow. Little and often works better for me.

A figure 8 I can more or less do in my sleep and it is the best way know to keep your bevels reasonably flat (mine aren't perfect by any means), but nicked edges and very blunt tools always come home and are ground out on a machine, at which point I take the trouble to flatten the bevels as well.

I recently discovered an interesting detail - if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!

You said it! Why did it take you so long, though?

 

[danst96]

It's funny, I see so much about Paul and also Rob cosman but I pay little attention to either. Both preach a hard-line in terms of tools, brands and "what is best".

There's many woodworking bloggers and YouTubers out there which take a much more rounded view which I prefer to follow. End of the day, I think many of us here buy tools based on our own experiences, beliefs and brand preferences over what some random guy who may or may not have affiliate links will suggest.

 

[pe2dave]

"What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?

 

[Jacob]

....

You said it! Why did it take you so long, though?

Dunno, have been doing it for years but just hadn't given it a thought until I suddenly realised it!

 

[Doug B]

"What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?

Spot on Dave anyone who states there opinions as facts in my book aren’t worth watching. It amazes me how easily lead some folks are hanging on every word of the latest guru & defending them to the hilt should anyone question them & I’m not just talking Sellers.
They are all out there to make money & will say anything to increase profit regardless of whether that contradicts what they’ve previously said.

Over the years I’ve seen several woodworking “celebrities“ who push hand tool only woodwork as it’s a very fashionable money maker only to find they own machinery but just don’t mention it.

 

[D_W]

Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?

We're familiar with the other parts - busting onto the scene with perfumey media that didn't quite make sense given the background gimmick. Pushing the "i'm the real woodworker, not the guy who sells you tools, and if you follow me, you will be happy and live in a mushroom hut employing yourself in a craft economy" thing.

But, yeah, that flippant oversimplification of business reality was obnoxious. Especially if anyone believes it.

 

[Rorschach]

Now that's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear from someone who'd never been self employed. Extend deadlines that way and you end up with dissatisfied customers, cancelled orders and lost revenue. Does he actually teach anything about running a business on his courses? Of course not, because that would mean admitting that it is damned hard work. Apologies to anyone who was/is in the profession (my wife was), but what was it Shaw said about teaching?

Definitely never had to deal with real customer if that is their attitude!

 

[pidgeonpost]

The good thing about Sellers is that at least he's not encouraging people to spend cash when other tools are "good enough".

I don't get the reverence though

As an amateur sawdust maker I've picked up a few useful tips from Sellers, and certainly my hand-cut dovetails (which I rarely get to cut) have improved since watching a few of his vids. But I too don't get the sycophantic comments about him being some sort of god or genius. I take the good bits and (try to) ignore the stuff that gets up my pipe - like whether to lie your plane on the sole or the side. And no, I'm not seeking to start that hare running again!

 

[JobandKnock]

Be different - make a stand for it so you can park it upside down - Ozzie fashion...

 

[Jacob]

I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.