Pane sole Flattening

[mr edd]

Hi all

I have just picked up a old Stanley No8 C with 2 patent dates 1902 or something (so type 10 ?) and rosewood handles from a song and its a beaut!

The sole of the plane is really quite concave and having never flattened the sole on anything larger than a No 5 I was wondering if anyone had any advice regarding this task,

I know many will say that hand scraping the sole is more accurate and easier, but I am a joiner not a engineer and what maybe easy to you seems like a minefield to me.

I also appreciate some will say I do not need to flatten the sole at all but I appear to lack the magic touch to achieve acceptable jointing results on a plane without a flat sole.

I had a length of kitchen worktop left over from a job which a couple of years ago was surprisingly flat (checked with a starrett straight edge and silver Rizzla paper.........so technical stuff!) on which I placed a piece of 10mm float glass, it is supported by some kitchen base units left over from another job. But it has started to sag and I don't want to ruin a cracking plane.

 

[mr edd]

I also need a new laptop as it had a hissy fit and posted my question before I had finished typing.

What I wanted to add was any advise on how to build a solid flattening/lapping workstation or how you have gone about achieving yours would be amazing.

I looked at large granite surface plates but the cost is prohibitive (not to mention the depth and width increase with length) and there is talk of supporting them on the reference support points they were factory tested on, a little out of my depth of comprehension and budget.

Cheers

Edd

 

[Zeddedhed]

A piece of 10mm float glass on a slab of 25mm MDF should do it I'd think.
Thats what I use on the rare occasion I flatten anything. I used it to flatten my No 7 and it worked fine.

By the way, nothing wrong with using silver Rizzlas under a straightedge. More accurate than looking for a line of light.

 

[lanemaux]

It occurs to me that the moment arm of force applied to 2 feet of plane sole in use may just address a pretty fair amount your concavity without the need of much flattening. Convex would be a whole 'nother kettle o'perch. Perhaps you should put a piece of paper under the middle of the plane and apply a not unreasonable amount of downward force on it with one hand and move the paper around with the other. It might surprise you.

 

[MIGNAL]

I've had more luck with a very small sanding block and some 100G, spot sanding. A bit like scraping but with the obvious difference. You just have to keep checking the sole frequently (length and width) and be mindful that it's easy to 'chamfer' the edges. You want to avoid the hollow just ahead of the blade, that seems to effect Plane performance significantly.

 

[D_W]

Ditto to the above. On large planes with a lot of work, very coarse sandpaper, small block. You can dig deep on the cast pretty easily, you just need to have a reference surface to mark the sole (you can use a marker and run the plane across a lap to see where the marker gets removed and then go to work with a small block).

Use whatever you have handy in coarse paper. I've got a whole waste of 60 grit aluminum oxide and have done the work with that. Unless you're a REALLY heavy guy, it's difficult to remove much from a #8 when you have the entire sole being worked all at the same time.

Of the big planes I flattened that way, I'd bet the labor to use a small block to spot remove first is 1/5th of what it would be if you tried to lap the whole thing, and you'll use 1/10th of the sandpaper.

You can lap a bit by hand, brush off the filings, and then spot remove and compare the filings pile and you'll see a huge difference.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

You'll have obviously tried the 'sharpen up and use' test, and found the plane to be in need of attention, or you wouldn't have asked the question!

I agree with your comments about surface plates - bigger ones get expensive very quickly, and to accommodate a 24" plane sole something about 24" x 18" would be required; you'd need a forklift truck to move one of those, and they don't really have have that many other uses in a joiner's workshop. If you know of any small toolmaking firms anywhere within striking distance, it may be worth a couple of packets of chocolate hob-nobs to borrow their plate for a few minutes, clean the plane sole, back the iron right in, set it sole-down on the plate and go round with a set of feeler gauges just to see how far out of whack it is and where.

It may be worth a phone call to Ray Iles of the Old Tool Store; I know he refurbishes planes including surface grinding the soles. I don't know if his kit can accommodate a number 8, but can but ask....

Failing that - the guys above have just about covered it.

 

[Jacob]

I do it on the table of my planer.
For a long plane I'd use 2 sheets of say 80 grit wet n dry - just the cheap paper-backed variety as it lies flatter. Flood them with white spirit and they stay stuck down flat enough after the first couple of goes and it's all got well soaked. You will most likely be working on the ends of a concave sole so the sheets of grit can have a gap and don't have to touch. Keep it flooded. Lift the paper every now and then and take off the swarf with a magnet.
To make it look neat and engineered with straight lines you can do it against a wooden fence clamped over.
It's quite quick if you keep working it all over the surface and replacing the paper.
Having taken it down with coarse grit you can then go very briefly to fine (say 400) 10 seconds to take off the sharpness of the scratches and reduce friction. No need to go further. If you don't do this it happens anyway with use. Scratches are OK as long as the tops of the ridges are softened in this way - you don't need to remove the whole scratch.
If you haven't got a planer then any flat surface will do - but glossy and non absorbent so that the paper stays stuck down with the white spirit.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

A useful flat surface for long planes is frequently the bed of a large surface planer, if you have one available. The cast iron table of a rip saw or sliding table saw can also serve, as might the bed of any large machine, e.g., spindle moulder. I mention these bits of kit because you say you're a joiner, so you may have access to industrial scale machinery.

Anyway, you can glue down (Spray Mount) a long piece of heavy backed abrasive paper from a roll of the stuff, and abrade away. If the sole is badly out of whack, start with something like 40 or 60 grit which works quickly, get the sole flat where it matters, and then you can work your way up the grits until the sole is as polished as you want it to be.

In truth, once the sole is flat in the key areas (i.e., all around the rim, and all across the sole just in front of and just behind the mouth), even if the striations are coarse from, say 60 or 80 grit paper, then working through ever finer grits is primarily about appearance rather than significant improvement of the tool's functionality. However, once the sole is flattened, you will need to go around its edges with a file to just knock off the sharpness. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

A useful flat surface for long planes is frequently the bed of a large surface planer, if you have one available. The cast iron table of a rip saw or sliding table saw can also serve, as might the bed of any large machine, e.g., spindle moulder. I mention these bits of kit because you say you're a joiner, so you may have access to industrial scale machinery.

Anyway, you can glue down (Spray Mount) a long piece of heavy backed abrasive paper from a roll of the stuff, and abrade away. If the sole is badly out of whack, start with something like 40 or 60 grit which works quickly, get the sole flat where it matters, and then you can work your way up the grits until the sole is as polished as you want it to be.

In truth, once the sole is flat in the key areas (i.e., all around the rim, and all across the sole just in front of and just behind the mouth), even if the striations are coarse from, say 60 or 80 grit paper, then working through ever finer grits is primarily about appearance rather than significant improvement of the tool's functionality. However, once the sole is flattened, you will need to go around its edges with a file to just knock off the sharpness. Slainte.

No need to spray mount if you use thin paper-backed abrasive, wet. It really is much easier and much flatter.
No need to polish it serves no purpose.

 

[D_W]

If you haven't got a planer then any flat surface will do - but glossy and non absorbent so that the paper stays stuck down with the white spirit.

Cheapest I've found is to go to a store that has custom glass and tell them you need a thick shelf for a cabinet about 8x42. Then a reasonably flat surface will do as long as it's not too convex or concave (a bench is usually fine).

The cost for a random custom order of glass like that here is over $100. If you're buying a "shelf" (because such things aren't very valuable), it's usually $20 or $30.

Presume they sell rolls of PSA paper in the UK that have adhesive on the back? Those are my choice because they stay affixed well, and the abrasive can usually be gotten in mid-grade aluminum oxide. Anything more expensive doesn't hold up proportional to cost.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Some time ago I got all my bench planes flattened at North London Saws. It's not a service they offer but we get our metal and wood blades sharpened there regularly and they know me quite well (only as a customer). They charged me £25 to set up the machine and £5 per plane to flatten the sole and square up one side. None of the soles will allow a one thou feeler gauge under my straight edge and some of them were quite banana shape when I took them in . The biggest was a number 6 and I'm not sure what machine they used. If I were you I would take it to an engineer/engine re builders and see what they would charge you, I think it is quite an easy task for someone with the right machinery, 2 foot is quite long for a plane but plenty of cylinder heads are that long. You may prefer to do it yourself but as you say you are a woodworker not an engineer.
If you do go this route a follow up post would be interesting, I always felt like I got a real bargain.
Paddy

 

[Jacob]

If you haven't got a planer then any flat surface will do - but glossy and non absorbent so that the paper stays stuck down with the white spirit.

Cheapest I've found is to go to a store that has custom glass and tell them you need a thick shelf for a cabinet about 8x42. Then a reasonably flat surface will do as long as it's not too convex or concave (a bench is usually fine).

The cost for a random custom order of glass like that here is over $100. If you're buying a "shelf" (because such things aren't very valuable), it's usually $20 or $30.

Presume they sell rolls of PSA paper in the UK that have adhesive on the back? Those are my choice because they stay affixed well, and the abrasive can usually be gotten in mid-grade aluminum oxide. Anything more expensive doesn't hold up proportional to cost.

Cheaper paper-backed paper, wet, is easiest and flattest. The stuff that comes in a flat pack from Wilco's, not off a roll. Keep it flat by storing between boards.

 

[D_W]

If you haven't got a planer then any flat surface will do - but glossy and non absorbent so that the paper stays stuck down with the white spirit.

Cheapest I've found is to go to a store that has custom glass and tell them you need a thick shelf for a cabinet about 8x42. Then a reasonably flat surface will do as long as it's not too convex or concave (a bench is usually fine).

The cost for a random custom order of glass like that here is over $100. If you're buying a "shelf" (because such things aren't very valuable), it's usually $20 or $30.

Presume they sell rolls of PSA paper in the UK that have adhesive on the back? Those are my choice because they stay affixed well, and the abrasive can usually be gotten in mid-grade aluminum oxide. Anything more expensive doesn't hold up proportional to cost.

Cheaper paper-backed paper, wet, is easiest and flattest.

There may be something different market-wise here to there. PSA rolls in coarse are about 60 cents a foot here, and the paper is much more durable. It's as flat as it would be if it was paper backed once it's stuck hard to something (no dub). That's 60 cents a foot for 4 inch wide roll, whereas 2 1/2 inch wide roll is a bit cheaper (but it's too narrow).

 

[Jacob]

I mean this sort of stuff. Cheap and thin is good as it stays down flat if merely wetted with white spirit (or anything - water if you are not doing it on your machine bed!)
And it cuts a lot faster if flooded wet

 

[mr edd]

Wow thanks very much everyone for your speedy and helpful replies!!!

I have a couple of newer No 6 records I picked up dirt cheap that I will try some of the suggested techniques on,

Cheshire Chappie I should have thought of R

 

[mr edd]

Bloomin laptop done it again......

As I was trying to type before I was rudely interrupted by technology........................Cheshire Chappie I should have thought of Ray Iles, Very daft of me as I own a couple of his new tools but had completely forgotten he refurbs planes, I will drop him an email.

Re approaching tool makers, a previous attempt to pose this question resulted in the kind of facial contortions I would associate with a complete stranger asking to borrow another mans girlfriend for a couple of hours, I left feeling I had made an inexcusable social blunder!!!!! but that might be just one bad experience.

Thanks once again for all your help any further thoughts always appreciated

Ta muchley

Edd

 

[D_W]

Re approaching tool makers, a previous attempt to pose this question resulted in the kind of facial contortions I would associate with a complete stranger asking to borrow another mans girlfriend for a couple of hours, I left feeling I had made an inexcusable social blunder!!!!! but that might be just one bad experience.

Show them your wallet!

 

[bugbear]

How far out is the sole - you can check it with your straight edge and some feeler gauges (real or improvised, but they're cheap and useful)

By quantifying the error (and hence how much metal needs to be removed), we can select the best way.

(but as a preliminary, I've never heard a report of someone even trying to flatten a #8 by lapping, let alone succeeding)

BugBear

 

[D_W]

How far out is the sole - you can check it with your straight edge and some feeler gauges (real or improvised)

By quantifiying the error (and hence how much metal needs to be removed), we can select the best way.

(but as a preliminary, I've never heard a report of someone even trying to flatten a #8 by lapping, let alone succeeding)

BugBear

I wouldn't call this success, but I lapped one when I was a beginner in one hour stints. 5 of them. Several replacements of PSA paper.

Completely waste of money and time. It was relatively flat, but there was still some erosion in front of the mouth. I was trying to remove wear from a plane that looked like it had been pushed one direction over dirty edges its whole life, but it really could've been left alone and it would've worked fine. It had wear in a diagonal, but it wasn't really that deep

The next one I actually flattened with the block method that has been mentioned above and it took about an hour and a half to remove much more metal. And it was a whole lot more pleasant. I can't remember why I flattened that one, but I have always flattened jointers for reasons that I can't right now recall. I flattened one last weekend (but it was beech...and it's new and actually needed it).